• indoubt Podcast
  • ·
  • January 23, 2023

Ep. 228: What is Outrage Culture?

With Scott Sauls, , , and Isaac Dagneau

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Why is it that so many people today get offended easily, even going out of their way to find something to be offended about? At times, it feels like you can’t share even the mildest opinion for fear that someone around you will get upset. This week, Isaac is going to be speaking with pastor and author Scott Sauls about just that, the prevalence of outrage culture in our society today. Whether it was a tweet or Facebook post from 10 seconds or 10 years ago, we as a society seem to take pleasure in tearing down anyone who says anything we disagree with, even if that means taking things out of context. Is that how we as Christians are called to respond? Is that what love looks like? We’re so happy you’re here to listen as Isaac and Scott talk about a biblical response to this issue, as well as why gentleness may be the ultimate secret weapon to combating a cancel culture in today’s society.

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Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s Word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com

Erika:
Hey everyone, it’s Erika. Thanks so much for joining us for this episode of indoubt. Why is it that so many people today get offended super easily, even going out of their way to find something to be offended about? At times, it feels like you can’t share even the most mild opinion for fear that someone around you will get upset. This week, Isaac is going to be speaking with pastor and author Scott Sauls about just that, the prevalence of outrage culture in our society today. Whether it was a tweet or Facebook post from 10 seconds or 10 years ago, we as a society seem to take pleasure in tearing down anyone who says anything we disagree with, even if that means taking things out of context. Is that how we as Christians are called to respond? Is that what love looks like? We’re so happy you’re here to listen as Isaac and Scott talk about a biblical response to this issue, as well as why gentleness may be the ultimate secret weapon to combating a cancel culture in today’s society. We hope you enjoy the episode.

Isaac Dagneau:
Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name is Isaac, one of the hosts at indoubt. And with me on the show today is pastor and author Scott Sauls. So thanks so much for being here with us, Scott.

Scott Sauls:
Pleasure to be with you, Isaac.

Isaac Dagneau:
For my own sake and also for the sake of all of our faithful listeners, why don’t you just tell us a bit about who you are. How did you come to know Jesus Christ? And also, where has God placed you? So maybe go from your testimony, all the way up to where you are now in a short period of time, because I’m sure there’s not a lot to say.

Scott Sauls:
Sure. I became a believer in and follower of Christ in my college years. I was actually introduced to the gospel late in high school, and it stayed with me until my heart followed what was in my head based on a disappointment related to a relationship that didn’t work out with a girl in college. And so, it just sent me into a bit of a tailspin. And God had just put some young Christian men in my life, who welcomed me into their life and community, and that’s how I met the Lord and began the walk of discipleship was toward the end of my college years. And since time, I have gotten married to my wife now of 25 years, her name is Patti. We have two daughters, Abby who’s a senior in college, Ellie who’s a senior in high school, both of whom are doing school at home for their last semester because of COVID-19 and all that goes with that. And we are currently in Nashville, Tennessee, where I’m the senior pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church. I’ve been in that role for eight years now. And over the course of those eight years, I’ve written five books, which is a little bit hard to believe that I’ve had that much to say. I don’t really think of myself as someone who has that much to say, but I’ve got five published books, and I guess we’re going to talk about one of them in this broadcast. Before Nashville, I’d served for several years as a preaching and congregational pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City, mentored there by Tim Keller, who’s probably known by some of your listeners, at least. And before that, we planted two churches, both in the Midwestern United States. And so, that’s a broad brush of what got us or got me to where I am right now.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. No, that’s awesome. Thanks for sharing. A few takeaways from what you just explained, it’s crazy to see how many testimonies begin with some relationship issue with someone who’s like an adult or whatever. It’s amazing what brings someone to church or what makes people start thinking. So praise God. He works in His sovereign providence in many ways.

Scott Sauls:
Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:
And also, I was going to say I appreciate your humility when it comes to writing books. I was going to say, if you thought the other way that you have so much to say that you got to write, then I’d probably be a little bit more hesitant with you, but I appreciate your humility there. And one of the questions Scott is that, Nashville, I mean, it’s the hub where LifeWay is at and lots of churches down there. What is it like preaching in Nashville?

Scott Sauls:
I mean, like any other city that’s filled with culture, you’ve got a mix of all kinds of people from all kinds of places and perspectives. One of the things that brought us here was how refreshingly cosmopolitan and diverse it is. Coming out of New York especially, Nashville is on the front end of a bit of a renaissance of becoming a different kind of city. It used to be what they call the Buckle of the Bible Belt, and it’s swiftly becoming what they now call it the Third Coast. There’s a very significant migration here from cities like New York, Washington DC, Boston, and then on the West Coast cities like Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, et cetera. There’s just a lot of creativity coming here, a lot of industry coming here. There’s three major universities. It’s known as one of the central hubs globally of healthcare research, and state government is here, and of course arts and entertainment. And so there’s just a lot happening here, culturally, which is the environment that we were groomed and mentored in, and so it’s felt like a very natural fit.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. No, that’s great. And I can imagine that as a pastor being in a place with such diversity, there’s a lot on your hands. And I’m sure you have a good team, and obviously your family, that helps back you up in all that you do. So that’s great. Scott, your most recent book this year is A Gentle Answer, and with the subtitle, Our “Secret Weapon” in an Age of Us Against Them. Now, instead of just hearing just a quick summary of what this book is about, maybe we could begin with just explaining what you mean by an us-against-them culture. What is that? And also, could you give us some examples of what you mean by this, this us-against-them culture?

Scott Sauls:
Well, us-against-them culture, some have called it a culture of outrage. One New York Times writer, Tim Kreider calls it outrage porn. And he’s essentially talking about how intoxicating and attractive it seems to be to so many of us to be constantly on the lookout for something to be offended by. He says we love to feel right, and we love to feel wronged by somebody else. And it doesn’t really take much convincing, especially if you’re in the United States… I know you’re calling in from Canada, but yeah, in the United States, there is so much polarization that the word polarization is overused. On social media, they call it cancel culture where people are shaming and cancelling each other out for things that they may have been involved with 30 years ago. I don’t know. Just the impulse to judge and punish seems to be at an all-time high, or at least it feels that way in Western American culture in particular. And then add to that what promises to be a very controversial election season comes up in late 2020 here in the States. You’ve got this climate of everything that I’m describing right now.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, absolutely. And obviously, things that happen in culture. I mean, the church is in culture because we’re not some monasteries, were in culture, and obviously things in culture affects the church. In what ways have you seen this us-against culture affect the church?

Scott Sauls:
Well, unfortunately, the church can often get infected by ideas and ways of thinking that are much more worldly than they are of Christ. I think that in some pockets, at least, this is proven to be true. If you take the amount of time that those who identify as Christian, for instance, spend in focused spiritual formation endeavours, Bible reading, prayer, small group community, worship with the local church, et cetera, take the amount of time that the average professing Christian spends on those endeavours relative to the average amount of time that a professing Christian spends watching cable news or scrolling through a newsfeed to check up on the latest in politics and so on, I think you’ll find discouragingly that there will be many who identify as followers of Christ but they’re actually allowing themselves to be discipled more by the culture than they are by Jesus, and more by partisan politics than by the kingdom of God. And so, it’s a concern. It’s woven its way into the church. Emma Green of the Atlantic has written an article. I think it’s called Taming Christian Rage. She’s just observing that people of faith are not exempt from getting sucked into it all.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, of course. Obviously for you having written a book on this idea, this topic, and being well-acquainted, maybe just make it very clear for us, what are those problems that this us-against-them culture produces, especially in the church? Like what is it that we must see starkly, and that we must learn to fight against, which obviously we’ll get into what the antidote is in a moment, but what are the clear problems with this us-against culture?

Scott Sauls:
Well, a clear problem with it from a Christian perspective is that if we’re easily offended, then we’re not acting in love because 1 Corinthians 13 says that love is not easily offended. If we are characteristically offensive, then we’re out of line with Scripture as well because Scripture tells us that as far as it depends on us, we should live at peace with all people. And the third reason is just a pragmatic reason, and that is that it is woefully unpersuasive to assume a scolding, finger-pointing posture toward those who don’t think as you do. I’ve been an ordained minister for 26 years, 25, 26 years now, and follower of Christ for about 32 years of my life, and I’ve still never met a single person who would say that they came into a relationship with Christ because a Christian or a group of Christians scolded them, lectured them, shamed them, told them how wrong they were. I’ve met scores and scores of people with the story of Christian people and groups of Christian people loving me and being kind to me in spite of myself, and welcoming me into their life and into their community. I have lots and lots of stories there. But I still haven’t met a person who said they got scolded into the kingdom. And so it’s not effective. It’s not fruitful.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That’s a good point. It’s clear. And I appreciate you bringing up the word from 1 Corinthians 13. That’s true. I appreciate that. So Scott, the moment that we’ve been waiting for is like, what have you found to be the way forward in this? What is that antidote to this kind of culture? What is it that you’d love to see Christians take up in arms and really move forward in?

Scott Sauls:
It’s like Proverbs tells us, “A gentle answer turns away wrath.” Like Jesus tells us, he is meek and humble in heart. One of the Psalms, I can’t remember which one it is, I was reading it earlier this week, where the Psalmist praise, “LORD, your gentleness has made me great.” Galatians 5, the fruit of the spirit is gentleness. I think that gentleness is a Christian virtue that is also a missional opportunity. I think that these days, the most convincing apologetic for Christianity is not that we have watertight arguments. The most convincing apologetic is that our lives are found to be beautiful, compellingly so and curiously so by virtue of how we live counterculturally. The writer, Madeleine L’Engle once said, “We draw people to Christ, not by telling them how right we are and how wrong they are, but by showing them a light that is so lovely that they can’t help but ask the source of it.” I think a great example right now is the renewed popularity of Mr. Rogers from Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood. The last couple of years it’s been a very popular documentary about his life as well as a Hollywood film starring Tom Hanks as Mr. Rogers, and there seems to be this new surge of people who can’t get enough of Mr. Rogers. And what’s his defining feature? He’s a gentleman. His three favourite words were, “I like you.” He was known as characteristically kind. There’s a part of me that wonders if there’s such an attraction in broader culture, this man who incidentally was a follower of Christ and a Presbyterian pastor. If there’s such a draw to this man, I wonder if the fruit of gentleness might actually be one of our greatest opportunities in a climate like the one we’re in right now to witness faithfully to the personal work of Jesus Christ.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. No, absolutely. I think it’s huge. Just for our listeners to know, you mentioned Proverbs, but even just in the famous fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5, that gentleness is listed there. Scott, what is gentleness not? As you’ve looked into what gentleness is, what is gentleness not?

Scott Sauls:
Gentleness is not wimpy. It is not roll over and be a doormat. There’s actually a very fierce internal quality that comes with gentleness. I suppose that Mr. Rogers, again, is a great example of this, because what drove his gentle posture toward children was actually pain and anger. He had pain because he was bullied as a child for being overweight. His peers called him “Fat Fred” and it created great pain for him. And he was also angry because he felt like children and children’s voices and ideas were not taken seriously enough by adults, and that really upset him. And it was those two things, his pain and his anger, his hatred for evil things, that drove him to advance the good through this gentle posture of his.

And actually the book, A Gentle Answer, is laid out into eight chapters. And the first three chapters are just different perspectives on how the gentleness of Christ is a gift that Christ has given to us: He Befriends the Sinner in Us, He Reforms the Pharisee in Us, He Disarms the Cynic in Us. But then the last five chapters, which are really about how his gentleness changes us, the titles of the chapters might be surprising for a book on gentleness because the titles are: We Grow Thicker Skin, We Do Anger Well, We Receive Criticism Graciously, We Forgive All the Way, and We Bless Even Our Own Betrayers. The fruit of gentleness, again, is formed through very gutsy internal work that is not for the faint heart. Even think about Christ at his shining moment, his greatest moment of torment was also his greatest moment of tenderness when he’s dying on the cross and he says to the thief on the cross who just finished mocking him a few moments before, “Today, you’ll be with me in paradise.” And when Judas betrays him, he calls Judas a friend. Even to the Son of Perdition, the man who’s betraying him, he says, “Friend, do what you’ve come here for.” He prays on the cross, “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do,” about his own betrayers and killers. And so, the fruit of gentleness is not a wimpy thing by any stretch. It’s one of the greatest displays of strength there can be.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. No, that’s huge and that’s really helpful. And I think you hit the nail on the head that I think, oftentimes, for some reason we just automatically make gentleness and use the word wimpy synonymous. But when we’re referring to it in the way that you’re talking about it, that’s just not true. So I do appreciate that, Scott. You mentioned how your book is separated in these twos different ways. So maybe we’ll just look at that first one very quickly revolved around Jesus. You mentioned that one aspect about him on the cross, forgiving and showing this mighty moment but also his incredible mercy and tenderness. But what does Jesus, and obviously the good news of his death, resurrection and ascension do to actually enable us and help us become gentle in our own lives?

Scott Sauls:
Yeah. I mean, I think it boils down to Romans 5:8, where it says that God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were still sinners, while we were still opposed to Him, while we were still hostile toward Him, while we were still trying to push Him out of our lives, that’s when Christ died for us. And so that was his response. When he would have had every justification to walk away from us for good, he didn’t. Instead, he came toward us in mercy. He weeps over Jerusalem, longing to gather rebellious Jerusalem under his wings like mother hen gathers her chicks. If Christ has that posture toward us at our worst, then we of all people should be among the least offensive and least offendable people in the world.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. Absolutely. That’s so good. From that then, Scott, as we slowly start to finish up this first conversation, what are some practical ways that we can learn to live with this Christ-like gentleness? And obviously you and I, we’re living in a time right now, everyone is with this global pandemic, so I’m sure you thought about ways that gentleness works in this kind of atmosphere. So maybe you could even possibly direct these practical ways of learning to be gentle towards this reality of our pandemic.

Scott Sauls:
Yeah. Oh, well, I think that one of the characteristics that goes along with gentleness is empathy, which has to do with doing the hard work of learning what it’s like to walk in other people’s shoes. I love one of the closing lines of the book or the movie Wonder, “Be kind, because every person you meet is fighting hard hidden battle.” I think we can all identify our own hidden battles and struggles. I think as we walk out into the world recognizing that every person has struggles like we have struggles might help with empathy, and just learning to see our neighbour rightly rather than falsely judging or caricaturing our neighbour is important, recognizing that Christ loves our neighbour, that God created our neighbour, and that our neighbour because of that is fearfully and wonderfully made and is a sacred creature.

Scott Sauls:
And especially when we’re looking at our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, to recognize that these are people that Christ determined we’re worth dying for. And if that’s the case, if that’s how valuable, even the most unsavoury human being is, who am I to treat somebody more poorly than God does and to regard somebody with less esteem than God does? It speaks a lot about my own hubris, and my own pride and arrogance if I’m more harsh towards somebody than God is.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. No, absolutely. Even to add that, Scott, and you don’t have to agree with me here, but I’ve often thought about this too. You talked about pride and arrogance, but I would also include ignorance, specifically when it comes to maybe holding some sort of grudge or you wanting some vengeance on a Christian brother or sister. Because as I thought about it, I’m like, “Well, if they’re a Christian genuinely, then Christ has paid for their sins.” So my anger and my feelings of needing to get revenge over them has no basis. And I’m trying to point something on them that God says, “No, it’s already finished. It’s paid for.” So it’s even some ignorance in there as well, but I do appreciate it. That’s good. Scott, as we finish up here, I’m just wondering if you could just leave us with a story. I mean, all of us know. You’ve already quoted different movies and stories. We love stories, and we grow so much from stories. Jesus knew that. He did parables all the time. Can you leave us with maybe a story in your own life, maybe someone else’s, that really shows us a general answer, really does work to bring about the fruitfulness that our world needs?

Scott Sauls:
I think the two more well-known people, different examples, Tim Keller is one of them. Tim is often publicly criticized as every public thought leader is by his critics. And in five years of working in serving alongside him, I never saw him respond even to an unfair criticism with defensiveness, anger, retaliatory remarks, nor did I ever witness him talking about his critics in any defamatory way. He just had this posture. What he would say is, “Even if there is an unfair criticism that I know is not true, I’m going to still look and see if there might be a kernel of truth in the criticism, which could create an opportunity for me to take it to the Lord and repent and receive his grace in a fresh way.” So with him. Bob Goff is another one. Bob is the author of Love Does, and many books and wonderful, wonderful man. When somebody criticizes him online, says something insulting online, which happens upon occasion, what he’ll do is he’ll scroll through their feed and try to learn about them personally, and see if he can find any struggles that they might have, and he’ll pray for the person. And if he can figure out how to get their mailing address, he’ll send them a cake pop or some other kind of treat, just a gesture of love. He’s like the king of creative olive branches. These are two well-known examples of people who because of their position in stature could easily write people off, ignore them, or get in a public shouting match and win with great victory. And yet they don’t. And those are a couple of examples that come to mind.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. Just hearing that is just so refreshing, and I’m sure our listeners sense that as well, because it’s so countercultural. And that’s why I think your book is going to be important because it’s really bringing up this Christ-like fruit, gentleness, that we desperately need in a culture where even within the church, it’s just so easy to retaliate. Hearing about the Bob Goff thing almost makes me just laugh because I’m like, “That is just so different than how even Christian sometimes can think.” So I appreciate that. We’re done here, listeners. But hey, if you’ve been listening and you’ve been encouraged by this conversation, that’s great. Praise God. If you want to know more, and I encourage you to want to know more, then I’d encourage you to go to scottsauls.com, or Amazon, or just search in your Google bar or speak to your Alexa or whatever, about A Gentle Answer by Scott Sauls. And pick up his book that’s coming out June, and I’m sure you will enjoy it.

Isaac Dagneau:
And if you’re like me, endorsements mean something. When I checked out the endorsements on Scott Saul’s book, there are some great endorsements as well. So it’s the way I work, and I’m sure it works for others as well. But hey, take a look and see what other people are talking about the book as well. It would be encouraging. So Scott, thank you so much, and I look forward to having you back on again.

Scott Sauls:
Thank you, Isaac.

Erika:
Who knew outrage culture held such a strong place in our society. Thanks so much to Scott Sauls for having this conversation today and reminding us that gentleness has a much greater impact than we might think. As a culture, we are so quick to become outraged and critical, but a gentle response to anger is what’s most needed. If you’d like to learn more about Scott or interested in any of his books, you can go to scottsauls.com. We’ll also have all the links on the episode page at indoubt.ca. If you enjoyed this conversation, you may want to head back to episode 158, where Scott was on a previous episode speaking with Ryan about making your faith stand out. If you’ve been enjoying the indoubt Podcast, we’d love to hear from you. Shoot us a message on social media, we’re on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, or send us an email to info@indoubt.ca, letting us know how indoubt has shaped your worldview or answered some of the toughest questions that life has thrown at you. Thanks again for listening, and make sure to join us next week as Joshua talks with Vaneetha Rendall Risner about the gift of suffering. This will be Joshua’s last episode as an indoubt host. So don’t miss it.

Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify, or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

 

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Ep_228_re-air_1920x1080

Who's Our Guest?

Scott Sauls

Scott serves as the Senior Pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Nashville, Tennessee. He is married to Patti and has two daughters, Abby and Ellie. He has also planted and pastored churches in Kansas City and St. Louis and is a frequent speaker at conferences, leadership retreats, and to university students. Scott has authored five published books: Jesus Outside the Lines, Befriend, From Weakness to Strength, Irresistible Faith, and A Gentle Answer.
Ep_228_re-air_1920x1080

Who's Our Guest?

Scott Sauls

Scott serves as the Senior Pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Nashville, Tennessee. He is married to Patti and has two daughters, Abby and Ellie. He has also planted and pastored churches in Kansas City and St. Louis and is a frequent speaker at conferences, leadership retreats, and to university students. Scott has authored five published books: Jesus Outside the Lines, Befriend, From Weakness to Strength, Irresistible Faith, and A Gentle Answer.