• indoubt Podcast
  • ·
  • May 15, 2023

Ep. 15: A MOTHER’S MISSION w/ Margo Marcus

With Margo Marcus , , , and Andrew Marcus

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Have you ever felt a prompting on your heart to do something for God that seemed a bit outrageous? The reality is, the more we spend time in prayer and fellowship with God, the more we are able to distinguish His voice, and the more we hear Him, the more we are able to be used by Him for His glory. Being on mission starts with a heart hungry for God, His Word and a life of prayer.

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Andrew Marcus: Hey, this is Andrew Marcus. Thank you for joining us for THE INDOUBT SHOW. Listen, we have a fantastic show today. The biggest guest we’ve ever had. We have my mother, Margo Marcus. She’s going to be joining us, it’s very close to Mother’s Day. I thought it’d be really cool to have her in studio. And we’re going to talk about a lot of stuff. Talk about her history, her story, her journey coming from Egypt. Her testimony of just the power of missionaries, the importance of prayer and how prayer literally changes lives and changes. So many things. And so it’s powerful. It’s beautiful. So we’re going to talk about that, talk about the importance of prayer, how it should be our first response and not our last resort, something very important. So we’ll dive into all that and many more things, but we hope you enjoy the show. God bless.

All right. Well we are here and we’ve got a very, very, very, very special guest. We have my mother. But how are you doing?

Margo Marcus: I’m doing great, I’m honoured.

Andrew Marcus: This is a huge honor. You know what they say? It’s not smart to meet your heroes because you might be disappointed. But unfortunately, I was raised by mine, so I couldn’t avoid it.

Margo Marcus: Wow.

Andrew Marcus: We have, it is seriously an honor. You’re literally my hero. I’m a little bit nervous. This is like the biggest guest we’ve had.

Margo Marcus: Oh my goodness.

Andrew Marcus: In my opinion. But you know what, I’ve been so blessed to be raised by someone like you and we thought for Mother’s Day it’d be good to have a Mother’s Day episode.

That’s why I brought these beautiful fake flowers from home. But tell us a little bit before we dive into your story, cuz I know I had the privilege of having a front row seat and seeing just your hunger for God. Seeing your desire and passion for prayer. And to see you in your workplace, which is kind of a secular workplace, which we can talk about how you’re on mission.

I think a lot of people think ministry is in the four walls of the church on a Sunday morning. That’s when you do ministry and then you go out into the world. But I feel like your life has always been the opposite, where when you go out into the world, you’re on mission, you’re doing ministry, and then you come to church on Sunday to be refreshed.

For the week of ministry. And so I wanna talk about all that stuff. But before we even dive into your story, I know that your life, you’ve seen your family. Passionate for prayer and being on mission. And so I know your mom passed away in December, 2018. I remember that very vividly. But tell us a little bit about your mom first before I get the privilege of telling our viewers about my mom. And you can tell your story, but tell me a little bit about your mom and her story. Where she’s from, the upbringing.

Margo Marcus: Thank you, Andrew. You’re so sweet. Yeah, and again also, you look up to me. And I can tell you honestly, I have been looking up to you and learning from you.

Andrew Marcus: No, she’s just saying that Cause I’m taller.

Margo Marcus: No. I’m, I’m, I’m serious. I mean, your life story and seeing how you grow and how God has been an awesome vivid working in your life was great testimony. And when you say I used my office for ministry. I have shared your story.

 Once and twice and 10 times and hundred times. So you inspired me.

Andrew Marcus: And it’s pretty cool.

Margo Marcus: Go back and forth. Right.

Andrew Marcus: And it’s pretty cool because we’ll get to it a little bit later, but my life was changed and I believe it through mom and dad’s prayers. So we’ll talk about the power of prayer.

 But your mom. You mentioned to me even on the drive today, you know her, her mom passed away

Margo Marcus: yes.

Andrew Marcus: When she was very young.

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: I didn’t actually really remember that.

Margo Marcus: So my mom we’re Egyptian. As, as you know. So my mom, her mom passed away when she was a little baby.

And her father could not take care of her, so he put her in a Christian boarding school. So what happened is her name is Selma. So there’s this story about a lady called Mabel Dean. Mabel Dean was from Chicago. She’s an American lady. She was a bank clerk. And she was 40 years old when she got a call.

She was in her commute to work in the train and saw a vision. Jesus holding a stone in his hand. And he threw it across the ocean and told her, I call you, you are that stone to go to Africa. She was 40 years old, single, unmarried. She didn’t tell anybody that vision. Her first day in church on Sunday, right after seeing that vision, her pastor called her and said to her sister Dean, whatever the Lord told you. Go say yes and do it.

Andrew Marcus: Wow. Wow.

Margo Marcus: So when she applied, did an application to go with the… to as a missionary, the supervisor that looked at the application said like, no, I judge her as not qualified. She is good to be a helper but not a leader. Right. So he said, no. But then in the same, somebody heard her story.

Another lady and said to her why don’t you come with me to Egypt? And she said, but no, the Lord is calling me to Africa. She’s smiled and she said, but Egypt is in Africa. So Mabel Dean decided to go with this lady and this lady got ill in Egypt and left Mabel Dean by herself. So Mabel Dean was helping in the school.

 The school where my mom was. Right. So, and then there was a Lillian Trasher which is another huge lady that went to Egypt at the same time to start an orphanage in Asyut so she sent her and asked her, why don’t you come to a, a city called Minya north of Asyut and start doing a missionary with kids?

Like do a school for children? So who she will take with her, she took Selma with her. Which is my mom. And she started, and then another six ladies from the mission, from the orphanage. They came to her to help her with her ministry. And that’s how she started.

Andrew Marcus: She was young.

Margo Marcus: She was, she was 40.

Andrew Marcus: No, but I mean, your mom

Margo Marcus: My mom must have must have been like maybe seven, eight years old.

Andrew Marcus: Yeah, yeah,

Margo Marcus: you know, so that’s how revival start in Minya. And she start enlarging her ministry to have pastors. She could not speak the Arabic language, but she learned how to teach them to speak the English.

Andrew Marcus: Oh, wow.

Margo Marcus: So that’s how my mom…

Andrew Marcus: Learned English.

Margo Marcus: Learned English. And so she had about 20 young pastors, preachers, and she used to disciple them and they go and preach in their own language. And one of those pastors was Dad. So that’s how it started with a woman. That was not qualified to go

Andrew Marcus: To human standards. But called and qualified by God.

Margo Marcus: And fast forward, I love this. So she went to Egypt to, do her ministry in Egypt. And then from Egypt, mom learns the language and they get together. They had eight kids. We come to North America, and then we minister in North America.

Andrew Marcus: And then all your brothers and sisters, for the most part have all been in ministry.

Margo Marcus: Exactly.

 And eight of us two of them are full-time. One of them passed away. And every one of us is in their own place. So that’s the story of missionary and the power of missionaries.

 And I love it. You don’t know. How it’s going to go. With one missionary. If one person gets converted and you don’t know the multiplication and how it’ll go, you may not even see it. Like Mabel Dean did not know that the grandkid of Selma will do what you’re doing.

She didn’t witness that.

Andrew Marcus: I read that she passed away in 1961.

Margo Marcus: June I think.

Andrew Marcus: You sent me an article last night and I actually want to read a couple little clips of it cause I think it’s fascinating. But Mabel Dean, she passed away in 1961. All the things you said, you know, I know you mentioned the stone throwing go across.

She didn’t know Egypt was in Africa. She goes, does all these things, but I just, I couldn’t help but notice Dean believed in the power of prayer.

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: And she would pray while her students preached. And so this was a praying woman. “Do not waste your time and strength there now, I will make this a matter of prayer.”

So everything you read through this article she was just a woman of faith. And she just really, really cared about prayer and it’s actually kind of cool cuz one of your sisters was named after her.

Margo Marcus: That’s correct.

Andrew Marcus: Named Mabel

Margo Marcus: The very first born of Mom and Dad is Mabel

Andrew Marcus: oh wow. The very first born… That’s so cool.

Margo Marcus: And she’s still with us today. And obviously she was also raised by Mabel. By Mabel Dean that is, so we feel like Mabel Dean was almost like the grandmother.

Andrew Marcus: It’s kind of cool.

Margo Marcus: Of our family. You know, and it’s a power of prayer. And one part of the article, we actually run into this article in the time that my mom passed away.

Andrew Marcus: I know, and we discovered all of this.

Margo Marcus: And we discovered that Mom’s name was mentioned on it. And so one of the things here that made me laugh is that a girl lost money. And when she came back to home, she was crying and Mabel Dean said, don’t worry about it. Maybe a poor man has been praying for money. And that’s, you know,

Andrew Marcus: So it’s so cool because Mabel Dean, who was considered like a, you know, honorary grandmother was, you know, In love with the Lord, faithful woman. I think it’s so fascinating that she was a banker that seemed unqualified and then God called her to do amazing things and now look at the legacy from just one of the people.

There are many other families that were touched.

Margo Marcus: That’s right.

Andrew Marcus: So this is just one of the stories that have kind of unfolded through the generations, but a prayerful woman. Your mom was a prayerful woman.

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: And loved to worship. You know, she started to lose her memory over, you know, she probably lived maybe what, 10, 15 years?

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: With…

Margo Marcus: Alzheimer’s.

Andrew Marcus: With Alzheimer’s. And was struggling…

Margo Marcus: Or dementia.

Andrew Marcus: And didn’t remember who you were.

Margo Marcus: With mom she loved worshiping.

Andrew Marcus: That’s what I was going to say. It’s like she didn’t remember who, when they’re leaving or what’s going on. But then any song…

Margo Marcus: Yes

Andrew Marcus: All the lyrics, everything. All the time. It just blew my mind.

Margo Marcus: Totally, I used to visit her every Sunday. For years, and we have a little hymn book. And we sit together and this would be our church.

Andrew Marcus: You bring church to her.

Margo Marcus: I bring church to her. And we sing. And we sing and we sometimes, like, you know, the whole book.

And I joke with my mom and I says, mom, “You are the worship leader, I’m the pastor.”

We used to laugh and I says like, “We’re going to collect the offering.”

She says, “Oh, our church is empty. There’s nobody here.” but she had a musical ear.

Andrew Marcus: Yes.

Margo Marcus: And sometimes when I’m flipping the pages, a song, I don’t know how to start it.

So I says, mom. And she had dementia at that time, right? And I says, mom, I don’t know how to start this song. So I tell her the words and she starts

Andrew Marcus: Instantly

Margo Marcus: And all the songs memorized word for word. She was singing better than me. And I had the book, I used to laugh. I says, “I have the book and I don’t know how to sing it.”

 And yeah, so she was so much in love with Jesus. She was a prayer warrior for all of us. One thing that I remember so well, her praying, her singing, and same as dad, and that’s so important for young parents. To value how your kids are affected when they see you praying and worshiping.

It’s so important. Even for me right now, sometimes I feel like I’m shy to be seen kneeling down or in prayer. That’s why I go into my closet and I pray there, but that’s not honestly right. It’s good, because I so remember Dad praying. I so remember him sitting in his bed first thing in the morning before he put his foot on the ground.

He just sits and prays loud. Loud. And I hear him. He will be in his room and I hear Dad praying. You know, something like that even 40, 50, a hundred years later you will still remember that.

Andrew Marcus: And has an impact. So for young people to just be bold with and young families with little kids.

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: How your kids see your relationship.

Margo Marcus: Yes. Let them see you pray. Let them see you read the Bible.

Andrew Marcus: Haven’t you seen your dad like, cuz you know, growing up in Egypt there was a lot of like hate towards Christians.

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: You know the fights with Muslims and Christians and you’d mentioned seeing like people throwing rocks at him

Margo Marcus: And us too..

Andrew Marcus: He’d be singing and worshiping and just not, like it didn’t phase him.

Margo Marcus: Yes. Yes. That, that’s definitely, I know when Dad is home, when I hear him singing.

Andrew Marcus: Yeah, wow

Margo Marcus: He will be coming up the stairs and I know Dad is home because I hear him first singing. He, he was also a worshiper.

He was a saint, in my opinion.

Andrew Marcus: I actually haven’t met him, he passed away before I was born. So I can’t wait to meet him, but I hear all the stories even the story of the power of prayer for him, if we can share the testimony of your sister with Laura. And so she had, I think it’s meningitis…

Margo Marcus: Correct

Andrew Marcus: That’s what she had when she was probably eight years old or something like that I can’t remember.

Margo Marcus: No, very young. Very young.

Andrew Marcus: Oh, very little.

Margo Marcus: Very baby. Like probably one year old or something.

Andrew Marcus: So they were like, okay, she’s going to, she’s going to pass away.

Margo Marcus: Yeah, she’s number five. I’m number seven in the family. And by the way, the eight of us are named after missionaries. Back to the missionaries. I am named Margaret after a British missionary. So Laura was named after another missionary. So Laura got sick when she was a baby. And another thing that dad did, and it’s mentioned in the article as well, is that they planted churches.

 So dad was always in and out of villages planting churches. And mom being the awesome mom that she was, never complained about moving from place to place or him being away at that time there was no phones and no fast trains and all that stuff. So when she got sick and Dad is not in town he always make sure to leave money in case she dies and they need money for the funeral.

Andrew Marcus: Wow.

Margo Marcus: That’s how much they were expecting it to happen anytime. And so every time dad leaves the house and go in mission he leaves mom with, enough money in case that happens. And then she didn’t get well, she never walked. She never talked at the proper age and she was just a vegetable, like, you know, like not growing at all.

 Right? So Dad said, “I’m going to go up to the upper room almost, and I’m going to pray and fast for three days”, and told mom “I cannot see anybody, I don’t want to talk to anybody for three days.” So he went up and fasted and prayed and his prayer was, “Lord, it’s either you heal her or you take her.”

You know? So he prayed that and he saw a vision that, that the Lord cut her, cut her tummy.

Andrew Marcus: Like he watched the surgery.

Margo Marcus: Yeah, and he took all the bad stuff out. And sewed her again. And he went downstairs. And after that, Laura got better. Laura is walking, talking. She never made it to school.

 But Laura’s life is incredible. She is a blessing wherever she goes, she’s an angel. Like she spent her whole life with mom. And I believe mom lived long enough. Mom passed at 98. For the sake of Laura. So the power of prayer. The faith, I mean, it doesn’t mean that every time we pray that the Lord will answer.

 But, but there is power in prayers.

Andrew Marcus: Yeah, hugely. And so you’ve seen that growing up your whole life. So we see Mabel Dean’s story, her love for prayer, love for the Lord, that passes on to your mom, your dad, starting that ministry, planting a bunch of churches. And so it makes sense in the next generation, which is you.

Love for prayer. Love for the word. Your Bible’s more marked up than I’ve seen any other Bible. And you’re always singing just like your mom, and you love to worship like your mom and dad and you, you take prayer very seriously. And so it’s just a reminder to our listeners young and old, whoever’s listening that it’s a generational thing.

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: And we were talking about that even in the scriptures.

Margo Marcus: Yes. To the third and fourth generation.

Andrew Marcus: Yeah, and so you prayed for me a lot.

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: Because I was in a pretty terrible

Margo Marcus: Yes, that’s why I have a good story and I share that. And it gives me a way to open a conversation with people.

Andrew Marcus: Like I had a weird, you know, season in high school where I kind of rebelled and like most people, and I remember mom and dad dragging me to church. I didn’t want to go to church and I’d watch her go up every Sunday and pray at the front. I knew she was praying for me and it almost made me mad that I know she’s praying to try to like, get me to love the Lord or something.

And so I started to almost pray against your prayer, which you got me to start praying even though it was a terrible prayer. But I’ve seen your life. I’ve seen how serious prayer is to you. How could we encourage young people to take prayer seriously? What would you tell the young person?

Margo Marcus: Well what is prayer?

Prayer is a conversation between you and God and the Holy Spirit. A lot of time, I myself, guilty of that. When you’re dry, when you’re busy you don’t have time. To, sit and spend time with Him. And you immediately feel the result of this ,you are more impatient, you’re anxious.

But I feel like prayer is, we always mark our Zoom meetings and our meeting with people, and it’s important this and important that, and we don’t miss them and we prepare for them. But yet when it comes to talk to our creator, we don’t have time for Him

 And hopefully it’s not for a big season, it’s a 9 1 1 kind of, like you always go to him when there are troubles in your life. So but prayer is you talk. You listen, you wait. It fills you up. And like we shared, I said to you before, like, if you are full you are going to be able to share. But if you are empty, you’re not here, you’re not interested. It’s not a priority. Right? So prayer will fill you up. Prayer will bring you closer to Jesus. It’s not praying to the air. And, and it’s not that, it’s, that’s why the solitary, which Jesus taught us

He always went somewhere alone and prayed. And, if he needed that, how much more, more do we need that? You know?

Andrew Marcus: That’s such a good point too. It’s like we schedule all these Zoom meetings and all these important things that we need to do and we don’t wanna be late. And you know, it’s like it’s top priority.

And then when it comes to the creator, it’s like, ah.

Margo Marcus: When I have time…

Andrew Marcus: When I have time or if I need you really badly, but for the most part I’m good without you. And then that overflows as you said, into life and you can, you can tell. And so in your, because you’re a certified professional accountant, CPA so your profession is in the secular world.

But I find that so many times you come home, or I remember when I was living at home or I talked to you, you know, throughout the evening. You have this crazy story of, oh, this client came in and we’re in the boardroom, and next thing you know, you’re praying and this person’s weeping. And you know, it’s just like you always have these crazy stories.

 And I’m always just reminded that, you know, we’re on mission all the time.

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: And so whether you are a barista or you’re a student, or you work at Home Depot, wherever you are there is gospel ministry available to you. Ministry doesn’t just happen. And so I just love how you’ve converted your boardroom into a chapel.

And people are being ministered to all the time. You’ve actually started like a prayer ministry at your office.

Margo Marcus: Office. Yes. Yes.

Andrew Marcus: And so like, tell us a little bit about that because there’s a crazy story. You moved offices.

Margo Marcus: I know.

Andrew Marcus: And you were very sad. Can you mention her name? I think it’s fine.

Margo Marcus: Of course. Oh, she would love it. Yeah, yeah,

Andrew Marcus: Yoku is her name, so mom had a prayer partner that she would meet all the time in her old office, and then she moved to a new office, which was far for Yoku. And so her prayer ministry kind of just. Was gone. And that was really sad for you because that was some of the moments you cherish the most. Going to work having prayer every Tuesday or whatever it is. And then what happened?

Margo Marcus: It’s a good story because I started actually prayer about long time ago and it was a client of mine. And it was not Yoku it was Fran. And we started, she was my client. She says, let’s start praying.

And, and we did that for years. Years. And then this lady, Yoku. I met her in the bathroom. And I sense that she’s Christian and I start talking and then I said I’m Christian. My son is a worship leader. She said, oh, what’s his name? I said, Andrew Marcus. And she start jumping and screaming in the bathroom.

Anyway. I was actually worried that somebody hear us outside and say, what is going on in the bathroom?

Andrew Marcus: Oh, gosh.

Margo Marcus: So anyway, so I invited her to the prayer meeting and she start coming. But then, things happen. Fran moved. Yoku moved. I moved from the office. Three years, every Tuesday morning, Yoku send me a message.

 And that’s our prayer schedule. Used to be Tuesday morning. She send and send a short prayer for me. Until this day she does that. So three years later she sent me a text saying, and I haven’t seen her in three years. She lives in Vancouver. I’m in Surrey everybody’s busy. And came the pandemic and all that stuff.

 So she sent me a text and says I got a job in Surrey. So anyway she started her work and she sent me another text. Margo, what is your office address? So I send her, I says, I work downstairs.

Andrew Marcus: Oh my goodness.

Margo Marcus: So she works in the second level. I have my office on the third. So she comes up and…

Andrew Marcus: Amazing

Margo Marcus: We start, yeah, like how crazy is that? Out of all Surrey office buildings, the Lord sent her…

Andrew Marcus: yeah, amazing

Margo Marcus: to my building. So that was so encouraging.

Andrew Marcus: That’s so cool

Margo Marcus: And so, so amazing. So we do meet every Friday morning. At seven o’clock. And that’s another thing that is very important for prayers.

Prayer is, is good to be alone. And it’s good to have another one to pray with. One or two people. Where you can tell them your heart. Where they can, where they can follow up with you.

Andrew Marcus: Accountability. And just like iron sharpens iron. You’re together in this. We’re called to do life together.

Margo Marcus: Exactly. Exactly.

Andrew Marcus: It’s amazing. That’s so cool.

Margo Marcus: It is!

Andrew Marcus: And you’re obviously always in your Word, you love your Word, you read all the time. And it’s actually funny, like, you know, you have a heart and passion for worship. And then that kind of stemmed to me generation, to generation to generation.

I pray Benji and you know, our kids and next kids and again, third and fourth generation. So it just reminds us as young people that what we do now and how we live our life now matters to the third and fourth generation. It’s a big deal.

Margo Marcus: Absolutely.

Andrew Marcus: And how we raise our kids and how they view us and how they see us when we worship, when we pray, when we sing, how we take our relationship with the Lord seriously.

That has a huge effect to the third and fourth generation. Also, being on mission all the time. You know, you think of one of your clients ends up getting saved, ends up coming to an Alpha that you host, and then now we’re going to their daughter’s wedding. You know, it’s just like you… and you think of Mabel Dean and the one impact and how it, the huge string that follows that impact of that one person

Margo Marcus: That obeyed

Andrew Marcus: That obeyed that heard a call to go to the other side of the world.

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: Who was told they’re not qualified and how God used her mightily

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: To do amazing work for the kingdom.

Margo Marcus: Wow.

Andrew Marcus: And it’s like, so when you hear a call from the Lord listen and obey.

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: Be in your word, be in prayer. Be an example, and know that wherever you go, you’re on mission. And that one person that you can speak to and speak life into, you have no idea the trajectory that they’ll go and the impact that they could have because of your life and the fruit from your life.

And so, I am so grateful, that we can have this conversation and it’s so cool to hear your story and it’s so cool to witness it from the front row.

Margo Marcus: Oh, wow. I am very grateful. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Andrew Marcus: Thanks for joining us. Happy Mother’s Day.

Margo Marcus: Happy Mother’s Day to all the hardworking moms, especially young moms like Nancy and Michelle and…

Andrew Marcus: Moms are superheroes.

Margo Marcus: They are Jesus with skin on,

Andrew Marcus: Honestly, moms are superheroes. I feel like even watching Michelle. Like deliver children.

Margo Marcus: Yes.

Andrew Marcus: Now I can’t complain about any paper cut or anything ever. But it’s just, I find, I call you often to say thank you again. Because as I raise kids and see how hard it is to raise kids, even though it’s the best joy and delight in my life.

 There’s obviously challenges, but I feel like I call you guys often to say thank you again because it’s hard work

Margo Marcus: You do.

Andrew Marcus: But to all the moms who are watching and those who, if today’s hard for you, we pray for you a lot. I know even your mom being gone for a few years, I know it’s still hard, but thank you for being on the show.

We’re grateful. And we hope you have an amazing day.

Margo Marcus: Praise God, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Andrew Marcus: Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out THE INDOUBT SHOW on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out indoubt.ca, we have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.


Who's Our Guest?

Margo Marcus

Margo Marcus is a CPA (Certified Professional Accountant) who has received her designation in 1993 and launched her public practice Marcus & Co., CPA in 1997. Margo is passionate for the LORD and loves sharing her faith with those God places in her path. Her passion for being on mission comes from a rich history as her parents came to faith through a missionary’s life and ended up planting over 40 churches in Egypt! She views her career daily as a mission field as she passionately shares the Good News of Jesus with many of her clients

Who's Our Guest?

Margo Marcus

Margo Marcus is a CPA (Certified Professional Accountant) who has received her designation in 1993 and launched her public practice Marcus & Co., CPA in 1997. Margo is passionate for the LORD and loves sharing her faith with those God places in her path. Her passion for being on mission comes from a rich history as her parents came to faith through a missionary’s life and ended up planting over 40 churches in Egypt! She views her career daily as a mission field as she passionately shares the Good News of Jesus with many of her clients