Ep. 185: Holy Sexuality?

Kourtney Cromwell:
Welcome to the indoubt Podcast where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s Word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for joining us on this episode of indoubt. My name’s Kourtney, the indoubt Coordinator, and I’m so happy to have you with us. On this week’s episode, Isaac is joined by Christopher Yuan, a speaker, author, and Bible professor. Christopher recently published a book titled, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel, and this is the main focus for today’s episode. Isaac and Christopher talk about the reasoning behind the title of his book and discuss sex, desire, and relationships as part of God’s grand story. Christopher was actually recommended as a guest to us by Rosaria Butterfield, who was a guest on indoubt for episodes 159 and 160. Christopher came highly recommended to us and we’re all looking forward to this conversation. So, I hope that you’re able to learn from it and are encouraged.

Isaac Dagneau:
Well it’s a great privilege to have with us today, author, speaker, and Bible professor Christopher Yuan. So thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Christopher Yuan:
Yeah, thanks for having me on.

Isaac Dagneau:
Well thanks for being here.

Christopher Yuan:
Yes.

Isaac Dagneau:
As we jump into this conversation primarily about sexuality, about your new book, before that, I just want to ask for those who are unfamiliar with your story — and that’s myself a little bit too — could you just walk us through your life and your conversion, which is obviously a part of your life?

Christopher Yuan:
Yeah, sure. Just kind of in a nutshell, I wasn’t raised in a Christian home, but wrestled with my sexuality from fairly early on. I didn’t come out of the closet until my early 20s and when I did, I told my parents and it was so amazing. In God’s grace and his sovereignty, He … Actually, my parents came to faith through that crisis, but I went in the opposite direction. I’m from Chicago and I was going to dental school in Louisville, Kentucky, pursuing my doctorate in dentistry and trying to live the life, be a dental student while also having fun. I was partying, unfortunately started doing drugs, and I need to always be clear that not all gays and lesbians do drugs and not all gay men are promiscuous. I know that might sound kind of funny, but some people somehow believe that. Of course, that’s not true. That is part of my story, but amazingly how God even redeems every aspect of your life as we come to Christ.
Well I went in that direction while I was a dental student. I actually began selling drugs and for a time, my parents didn’t really know what I was doing and eventually I was expelled from dental school. So, I moved further south to Atlanta, Georgia, and there I just kept doing what I knew how to do best at that time, which was have fun and party and do drugs, sell drugs. I also became a supplier to other dealers in over a dozen states. My parents didn’t know the extent of my rebellion, but they knew above anything else that I needed to know to Jesus Christ. So, they prayed for that miracle. They prayed that I would just fully surrender my life to Christ.
Well eventually I was … And my parents even came to visit me one time in Atlanta and I kicked them out. My dad, before he left, gave me his very first Bible. So, they kept praying. My mother prayed for a miracle that God would do whatever it takes. She fasted every Monday for seven years and once, 39 days on my behalf. And this miracle came with a bang on my door and I was actually arrested, caught by the Federal Drug Enforcement agents, and I found myself in jail, a place that I never thought I would be. One time, I was walking around the cell block, passed by this garbage can of all things. I found a Gideon’s New Testament on the trash. I picked it up and went back to my cell, began reading it, not thinking that this is going to somehow be the answer to my problems, but as we know that God’s Word is not simply just ink on paper, but it’s the very breath of God.
I began reading it and it began to first convict me not just of my rebellion, but that I had put my identity in the wrong thing, that I realize that my whole life I was told that I am gay. And eventually when I got older, I bought into that line. I’m not denying the reality of experiencing attraction or desires and intimacy with the same sex, but I made that a category of personhood as I think many of us do as well, that sexuality became who I was when, in reality, sexuality is how I am. So that’s a key concept that I needed to be able to separate who I was from my sexuality, that I am gay, for me, meant that this was the core aspect of who I was. And I kept reading God’s Word and realize that God was not calling me or anyone to heterosexuality, but He was calling all of us to holy sexuality.
I talk about that in my first book that I wrote with my mother, Out of a Far Country: A Gay Son’s Journey to God, A Broken Mother’s Search for Hope. I introduce that concept of holy sexuality there and decided to flesh that out in my new book. But anyway, I was called to ministry while I was in prison. I put my faith in Christ while I was in prison and I was called to full-time ministry while I was in prison. I got out of prison and applied to Moody. I actually ended up doing three years. My sentence was shortened. I went to Moody Bible Institute and then went on to seminary and began speaking on this really important topic of sexuality.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, that’s awesome. Well praise God for that. Thank you for sharing your story. I just probably have one question about it. When you talk about your relationship with your parents in your time, in your time of rebellion, I think that’s really important that you really emphasize that, and it’s so cool that you’ve written your first book with your mother as well. That’s really, really cool.

Christopher Yuan:
Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:
But what was your perception of your parents in your time of rebellion? Were you struggling with that or were you kind of numbing it just with having fun? What went on in your heart and your mind as you considered your parents when you were rebelling?

Christopher Yuan:
Well I mean I think I wouldn’t say I’m that much different from other prodigals. I mean I guess if we’re really honest, we all are prodigals or were prodigals, but I think at that time there’s a point in which you almost turn your conscious off and you begin kind of buying into the lie that none of this matters. I mean especially if you are not a Christian, if this is all there is to life, then why not? Then morality is just completely dependent on each individual. As long as you’re not hurting someone, then it’s okay. It’s okay to do what you want to do and have fun as long as you don’t hurt someone. I think that was my mentality. I’m an adult. Kind of live and let live, I think, was my mantra.
So my parents, they actually did not really preach at me or tell me that I was living in sin, but just the fact that God had truly radically transformed their lives and I saw that, that was a bit defensive to me. But just from their lived out, living out the gospel, I think I saw the power of the gospel to change them. It wasn’t something that, for me, I took seriously until later, but it definitely planted seeds, just their silent witness and that I was able to see how the gospel had really flipped their lives upside down.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. Yeah. Well thank you for that. Appreciate that. You mentioned earlier this new book you’ve written, which in its full title is called, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel: Sex, Desire, and Relationships Shaped by God’s Grand Story. So Christopher, I’m wondering if you could first maybe explain what it is that is the problem or issue today that you see that has caused you to write this book and then just what the main emphasis of your book is.

Christopher Yuan:
Yeah, I would say the reason why I wrote this book was I saw something lacking. There’s been, there are other books that are out there and several of them focus upon what the Bible says, specifically the biblical texts and giving a defense for a biblical sexual ethic that specifically talking about the prohibitions against same-sex relationships. Those are very important texts, and yet we can’t build Christian life simply on God’s no. What I felt was we needed to have a more thorough discussion about God’s yes, and this meant that we needed to talk about sexuality through the lens of theology, more specifically biblical and systematic theology.
That’s kind of scary oftentimes for Christians because they think “Oh, theology, that’s just for those really heady academians, and I’m not a theologian. I’m just a Christian. I just want to follow Jesus.” Well that’s not true. If theology is really knowledge of God, well every Christian must have knowledge of God to become a Christian. As a matter of fact, I kind of argue an atheist is a theologian, just a bad theologian. So really the question isn’t whether one is a theologian or not. The question is whether we are a good theologian or not. So, I wanted to contribute something that I hadn’t really seen yet and that was to discuss sexuality through the lens of theology.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s good. We’re going to dive into that a little bit more. The subtitle of your book, as I said, it indicates that we first have to, we have to see sexuality in light of God’s grand story. So, before we look at the specifics, I’m just wondering if you could communicate what exactly you mean by God’s grand story.

Christopher Yuan:
Yeah. God’s grand story is the work of God, His redemptive work that we see played out through the pages of scripture. So obviously it begins with creation, then it goes to the fall, and then the Old Testament leads up to the coming of Christ. So, redemption and then ultimately consummation, which is the end times where everything is consummated, coming to completion through the work of Christ. So when we think about God’s redemptive arc for things — creation, fall, redemption, and consummation — that actually is a great framework to better understand sexuality.

Isaac Dagneau:
So in your years of ministry, Christopher, and your teaching and your writing, is there an aspect of this grand story, God’s grand story that you feel is essential to the discussion of sexuality that is perhaps maybe misunderstood or even ignored when it comes to our understanding of sexuality?

Christopher Yuan:
Yeah, I do. So, for example, my subtitle, Sex, Desire, and Relationships, how do we better understand these things and the aspects of sexuality when we see how it is all shaped and it should be shaped by God’s grand story? So first of all, in creation, we’re all created in the image of God. I think that’s a concept that we don’t really see talked about much, but interestingly enough, it’s something that maybe even the more progressive or liberal Christians embrace a lot. Talking about the value and dignity of all people, particularly those in the gay community, it’s important for us to see even those who have yet to know Christ or believing a distorted gospel are still created in God’s image. That gives everyone value and dignity that we should be aware of and not to demonize and not to make fun of or talk with disdain about an image bearer of God whether they identify as gay or not.
So that’s an important place for us to start, but then we can’t stop there. This is where our friends in the progressive churches, what they miss is the second aspect of God’s grand story which is the fall. I think many of them probably even might deny that very important aspect which comes from Genesis 3. Adam and Eve, they rebelled, they ate the forbidden fruit, and as a result of that, that consequence of their sin is what we in theology would call original sin. So original sin is not the actual sin of Adam and Eve, but original sin is the consequence of the sin of Adam and Eve which, first of all, is death. So, death came into the world, which means not only spiritual death but also physical death, but also guilt which is probably one of the hardest aspects of doctrine for people to swallow.
I’ll be honest. I was one of those people. How could … Something that I never did and how could I ever be responsible or guilty for something that I never did, right? Adam and Eve, they ate the forbidden fruit. I didn’t. But here’s what’s so interesting is that imputed guilt and imputed righteousness go hand in hand. I don’t know. I’ve yet to meet any Christian that complains about being made righteous for something that they never did. And yet, if we don’t complain about becoming righteous for something that we absolutely did not do and that is imputed to us, then we have no right to complain about being made guilty for something that we never did. And actually, if we were never guilty, then there’s no need to become righteous or to take on Christ’s righteousness.
So that’s important things. The second thing is guilt, and the third thing is that we all have a sin nature. That helps us to better understand when people say, “Well I’ve had these same-sex attractions for as long as I remember.” Some people even claim that they’re born that way, which today there really isn’t any evidence for that in science. Even though some people might think that they are born gay, I always tell Jesus has some really important words for people to hear, which is that we all must be born again. So even though people think they’re born gay, well, He says you must be born again, and that really applies whether we think we’re born an alcoholic or born a liar or cheater. We all must be born again.
So understanding the concept of the fall and then redemption, how Christ came to redeem us, including our relationships, especially in light of Christ redeeming us and the consummation when we think about marriage and the meaning of that, that Christ came. He didn’t die for us so that we would marry, but He came to die for us so that we would have Him. So that helps us to put relationships and marriage in contracts that isn’t our ultimate goal, but our ultimate goal is to have Christ. And also how marriage and relationships and even I would argue our sexuality is all temporary in light of the consummation and the struggles that one might have as a single individual or just the person wrestling with sexual brokenness, which I believe we all are, focusing on the redemptive aspect of power of the cross and what that means, that it doesn’t mean that our temptations and our struggles will be eliminated.
But it means that with Christ coming, He has set us free from the bondage of sin, but we will continue to struggle and fight and have this wrestle between our flesh and the spirit. So, I think that’s kind of a real quick overview of certain things and aspects of the grand story, creation, fall, redemption, and consummation and how those aspects can help us have a better, more fuller understanding of sexuality.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. No. I really appreciate that. Thank you, Christopher, taking us through that. Now, I mean the title of your book, Holy Sexuality, you speak of this holiness. This word, I mean we use it all the time. We sing about it. What exactly maybe is holiness and why not just title your book Sexuality and the Gospel or Right Sexuality or True Sexuality or Biblical Sexuality?

Christopher Yuan:
Yeah.

Isaac Dagneau:
Why holy?

Christopher Yuan:
Well holiness is scripturally, the meaning of holiness from the Old Testament and the New Testament really means being set apart. So- it’s not just … I mean we’ve kind of made it today as meaning kind of purity or sinlessness and it does mean that, but it also means set apart. I wanted to, in a sense, show how biblical sexuality is set apart. I mean if … Basically holy sexuality is biblical sexuality, but I wanted to juxtapose it and maybe kind of use it as a play-off of words and using the same beginning letter of H because we have this paradigm which is heterosexual and homosexual, which is really a secular paradigm that was birthed out of the mid-1800s German psychiatry.
Really at that time, what they were initially trying to do was name of the phenomenon of sexual attractions that were either toward the opposite sex, heterosexuality, or toward the same sex, homosexuality, but what ended up happening was, as they came up with these terms, heterosexual and homosexual, what happened is they really created a new category of personhood. So, it was at that point that then sexuality was linked and tied to identity which is a core concept. It’s my second chapter in my book that I mentioned a little earlier at the end of my testimony, that I really bought into this lie that sexuality was the core of who I was.
So I wanted to come up with this alternative, a kind of set apart reality called holy sexuality, and what holy sexuality means is quite simply it’s two paths, one of two paths. The first is if you are single and not married, then how do you live faithful to God regarding your sexuality? You will be sexually abstinent. The other path is if you are married, biblically married, then how do you live faithful to God? Well you will be faithful to your spouse of the opposite sex. So quite simply, holy sexuality is chastity in singleness and faithfulness in marriage. Those are really the only two paths that are laid out that God blesses on how to live in relationship to our sexuality.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. Thank you for that. You’re able to kind of portray that very concretely. So, thank you. What are some important things you’d say to Christians who are maybe listening to our conversation right now who find themselves with friends and family members who are struggling with their sexuality? And as I was thinking about this question, I wonder if there’s a difference between how we engage with a friend or family member who doesn’t think that they’re struggling, so they’re affirming maybe their homosexual behaviour, and maybe those that know that they are struggling. Maybe there’s a difference there, but what are some important things we’d say to them and do?

Christopher Yuan:
Yeah. I’m glad you made that distinction because that’s a very important first distinction that we need to make because if there’s someone who does not, like you say, they’re not struggling because … Sometimes parents come to me and say “Oh, my son struggles with same-sex attractions.” I ask, “Well is he struggling or is he embracing it?” And usually the case is that they’re not really struggling. They’ve given in, believe that this is who they are. Some even say tried to integrate their faith and their sexuality, which cannot really be integrated. What I say is many times they have just denied the faith altogether, and in those situations, we know that their sexuality is not their biggest problem, but it is faith in Christ.
So what we want to do is really focus on that aspect. Sexuality is really a secondary issue, a peripheral issue. Some people might have tried to integrate their faith and I don’t know what the numbers are in Canada, but here in the US, several studies say that 70% of Americans say they are Christian. Boy, I wish that were true, but it’s not. There’s kind of a cultural Christianity or they’ve misunderstood what the true gospel is, and yet they say they’re Christian. So I’m happy that they haven’t rejected the idea of Christianity, but I know that what I need to do is to share with them the true gospel, whether they already say they are Christian or not, but I want them to actually hold to the beautiful faith that is passed down from the apostles all the way through the early church to today.
So I’m not going to necessarily question them or argue with them, but I think one thing that I can do that we can do in a positive way, kind of use reverse psychology, we can say “What is God teaching you this week? I know you’re a Christian. That’s wonderful. Can we memorize scripture together or maybe do a Bible study together?” I really believe that as we delve into the Word of God, the Holy Spirit will have an opportunity to make the truths from scripture take root in our heart. I don’t know if you’re familiar with someone named Rosaria Butterfield. She’s a really good friend of mine, and her story is truly phenomenal. She was a complete atheist, a feminist, queer philosopher, English professor at Syracuse University, tenured, and she wanted to study us crazy Christians. Part of that research, she needed to read our Bible and she did as an English professor, and God met her. I mean the Holy Spirit just convicted her. I’ve seen that in others as well. So I think encouraging that, to get in the Word of God and to do that with our immature Christians, that we can help them to get into God’s Word and to see the beauty of His truth.
But then how do we walk with Christians who hold to the true gospel, who also know that same-sex relationships are not God’s will? So, in other words, they hold to biblical sexuality and yet they struggle with attractions towards the same sex. I think what they first need to realize is this battle that they’re battling out is not really that uncommon and that it is something that, when we put it in light of God’s grand story, every one of us is in a daily battle against our flesh, against our sinful temptations, fighting our desires. So, it’s not that much different. It’s not really that unique. I want people to know that so they don’t think that they are all alone because we have in a sense stigmatized it in the church, that this is somehow a very, very unique or strange experience so that people are left out in the cold and left outside with their own struggles. No one should have to struggle in the church.
So that’s one of the first things, to let them know that they’re really not that much different even though they might feel different, but in light of eternity, in light of the sinfulness of humanity, the reality is every one of us is broken and every one of us is in need of a mighty Saviour. So, I think it’s knowing that they’re not that much different and then helping them to, encouraging them to really delve in and to foster intimacy with Christ through all the things that we know, the spiritual disciplines. I think that’s really important. A great recent book, David Mathis, The Habits of Grace was really helpful for me actually just in the past few years, kind of gave me a kickstart in my daily time with God.
But then the second thing is really key and that is a local church that is community. God has given us the vehicle, the context in which healing occurs, in which corporate worship occurs. We’ve sometimes left the local church out of the picture and I think we need to bring it back particular in this conversation around same-sex attractions, that the church has kind of gotten a black eye. I think we’re not perfect, but we need to bring it back cause this is where discipleship, the context of discipleship really should occur. We can have accountability. We hear the Word preached to us, the ordinance, our practice, and even if discipline needs to occur, that’s where it will be done and done in a restorative way. So, I think it’s important that we encourage, very much emphasize the need for the local church.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah, that’s so good. Thank you so much, Christopher. We’re out of time here now, but we just really do appreciate you taking the time to chat with us today. If you’re listening right now and you’d like to learn more about Christopher and/or his new book, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel, you can go online and search christopheryuan.com. That’s Y-U-A-N, and from there, you can find access to the book and a lot more. But anyways, once again, thank you so much, Christopher, and I hope to have you back on again.

Christopher Yuan:
Oh, thanks for having me on. God bless you.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for listening today. I’m so glad that Christopher was able to join us and that we could have the opportunity to hear about his story and learn from him. If you’d like to find out more information on Christopher, you can go to his website at christopheryuan.com, and we’ll have that in the link section for this episode as well. If there’s anything you’d like to share with us, please do. We love hearing your stories and anything that you’d like to share with us on what we can do better. So, you can send us a private message on social media, or you can email me at info@indoubt.ca. So, I hope you join us for next week’s episode.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.