Ep. 204: It Takes a Village

Kourtney Cromwell:
Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s Word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Hey everyone, it’s Kourtney. On this week’s episode of indoubt, Joshua is joined by Craig Douglas, the Director of Timberline Ranch Camp, and they’re talking about the opportunity we have to impact kids around us. The saying, “It takes a village to raise a child,” is something that we hear often, but sometimes don’t fully understand. In this episode, Craig and Joshua take the time to break down that statement and go into more detail on why it does in fact, take a village. It takes each one of us to raise a child. We have to be willing to step into that role, whether it’s through summer camp ministry, Vacation Bible School, kid’s ministry on Sunday mornings, or just being there for the kids in our lives, we have the chance to disciple and be discipled in the process. So, I hope you enjoy this episode with Joshua and Craig Douglas.

Joshua Scott:
One of the things that I love about the Word of God, is just how incredibly practical it is. It’s funny, we see things like first Corinthians that teaches us how to deal with lawsuits between believers. You think, well how often does that come up? And yet that comes up in the Word of God. He teaches us how to deal with those situations. We have teaching on marriage, this very real and practical relationship between men and women where God says there is a way in which we are supposed to engage with one another, that a husband is supposed to love their wife and a wife is supposed to love their husbands. We have teaching in Titus two about older men, older women. How do seniors engage with the church? What’s their role?
And so I’m excited today to take on another really practical subject that at face value doesn’t seem like something really important, and yet it is incredibly important. And the subject is this: What is a Christian’s relationship with kids? And you might wonder how important is this in a young adults podcast? Well, I don’t know about you, but I have a brother who has two daughters and a son. I have two nieces and nephews, and I want to know, has God called me to be in a relationship with them that leads them to Christ? Has He called me to be involved in their discipleship? I think that’s actually a really significant question for all of us.
And so I’m joined today by Craig Douglas, who’s the Executive Director of Timberland Ranch Camp, and he’s going to help me wrestle through this question together. So, Craig, thanks so much for joining us.

Craig Douglas:
My privilege.

Joshua Scott:
So you’re the Executive Director of Timberland Ranch Camp. I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe how you came to know Christ and how you came to this calling. How did you come to this job?

Craig Douglas:
Sure. Well, I was born at a young age, as most of us were. And grew up on an island in the Pacific, Victoria, on Vancouver Island. And I was pretty privileged in that my parents knew Jesus and loved Him and taught me for me young age what it meant to be a follower of Jesus. And, yeah, they took me to church, and I was pretty young when I realized that I had a sin problem and that I needed a Saviour. And so, I put my trust in Jesus early on, although I think it was a long time before that saw a whole lot of fruit in my life. I was a pretty rambunctious child, I may have had a bit of a temper, and I may have gotten in the odd fight from time to time and that sort of thing. And God had a lot of work to do in my life.
And that happened over several years, and a lot of that was just being a camper. I went to Camp Qwanoes on Vancouver Island, for I think it was nine years as a camper there. Very formative years for me, got involved in our youth group and had some really godly young men who invested in my life. And that made such a huge difference. And so yeah, when I was in high school, I really believed that God was somehow calling me to follow Him in some kind of ministry, maybe full-time ministry. So, I went to Briercrest Bible College, I got a degree there and began working with youth, mainly with troubled youth for the first few years.
And then I actually got involved in a church ministry, which didn’t work out really well. It was a very difficult experience. I made some mistakes, I didn’t understand a lot of the culture, and had some not so nice things done to me as well. And so, I really felt at the end of that, that I had failed. I had some real health problems at the time as well. And so actually as soon as I resigned from that position, I had a couple of major operations involving removing various important, and apparently not so important, parts of my insides.
And then after that, yeah by that time I had been married for a few years. I married my best friend, Leanne, and a year after recovered from that. And was raising, I was actually at home, my wife went back to work and I was raising the kids while they were still in diapers and working on a degree at Acts Seminary. Soon after I finished that, I was planning on teaching somewhere, but God changed my direction and I found myself at Timberline Ranch in Maple Ridge, BC. And so, for the past almost 15 years I’ve been leading the team at Timberline.

Joshua Scott:
So you’ve worked with a wide variety of ages from young, young kids at camp all the way up to youth, and you’d said troubled youth?

Craig Douglas:
Yeah, that’s right.

Joshua Scott:
So here’s the question that we’re really going to kind of come to today. In Ephesians six, Galatians three, we read about parents’ role in leading their children, right? And so biblically, like Ephesians six even says, “Fathers, you’re supposed to bring up your children in the discipline, instruction of the Lord.” And so, the clear teaching of scripture is that the responsibility of discipling children is first in the hands of their parents. But the question is this: just because it’s their primary role, do we have a part in that work too? And so, I’m excited to hear from all that experience that you just shared that you’ve had, what you’ve learned over the years in terms of our responsibility to care for the next generation, to lead them. And so, why don’t we start with that question: is it every Christian’s responsibility to invest in the next generation?

Craig Douglas:
Well, definitely. But I don’t think it’s all necessarily in the same way. I mean, we can’t all work at camp. I wish we all could, or in youth groups or in children’s ministry. But we all need to think about what our role is with the next generation. Most of us have younger relatives, or siblings, or friends’ kids that we can invest in. And by invest, I mean it’s an investment of time, and maybe money as well but mostly it’s just time. And I really think, and I teach our staff, that kids spell love, T-I-M-E, right? I think we all do, it’s somebody investing in us. We talk a lot at camp about what it means to be a leader. And we know that leadership boils down to influence, but you can’t have influence unless you spend time with someone. So, Jesus calls us to be salt and light wherever we go. And I think he’s really talking about influence, about being in the world and making a difference wherever we go.

Joshua Scott:
So even as a young adult, is there some sense that I have a responsibility, like I shared at the start of our episode today that I have two nieces and a nephew. Should I think as a young adult that I have a role in their discipleship, or these other kids that come to church? Or should I be thinking, maybe this is something I can do some year down the road?

Craig Douglas:
Well, I think young adults are in the perfect place to influence the next generation. And they usually feel busy, I think we all feel busy. But the truth is, I think young adults may have more time and certainly more energy than people older than them. And they also have the added bonus that most kids look up to them. I mean, when I was in high school the leaders were probably like in their early twenties, I mean, they looked old to me. But I looked up to them. I thought, man, these… if I could only be like him, if I could only have it all together. And of course, they didn’t have it all together, but they had something. They had a walk with Christ that I wanted.
And actually my decision to go to Briercrest was that some of the leaders that invested in me, they had gone to Briercrest, and yeah, they were hugely influential in my life. They put up with my shenanigans, they invested into me, and I really think their godly examples and their willingness to allow me to lead, and at times fail, made an incalculable difference in my life. And I’m a leader today in many ways because of them.

Joshua Scott:
So I was a youth pastor for about eight months, just kind of an interim period while our church was looking for youth pastor. And one of the things that I ran into a lot with our young adult leaders was this sense that they felt like they weren’t spiritually ready to invest in the next generation. Is there something to that? Is there a level of spiritual maturity that we ought to see in ourselves before we really think of ourselves as disciple makers?

Craig Douglas:
Well, I think yes and no. I mean, in one sense, the more godly we are the better influence we can have on people. Again, when I teach leadership at camp, I talk about the two I’s of leadership: influence and integrity. And both are necessary because if you have integrity without influence, well that’s maybe like being a monk living in a cave. What’s the use, right? But if you have influence without integrity, you could mess up a lot of people. And that’s why scripture makes it clear that we need to be careful who we hang out with because we become like the people we spend the most time with. And that’s why I spent a lot of time with Jesus because we’re called to become like Christ.
So yeah, spiritual maturity is certainly something to strive for and it makes a big difference, but I think it’s even more important to be growing in your faith. Because I think someone who is growing, which includes failing at times, is going to be able to make more of a difference than someone who thinks they’ve arrived at maturity and then coast. So, I don’t think the issue is your level of spiritual maturity, but that you’re seeking Christ, that you’re in a place in your life where you’re growing. And so, at camp we always say we’re not looking for staff to be perfect, because we won’t be, but to be truly seeking after Christ, however imperfectly.

Joshua Scott:
That’s good. I was just thinking of first Corinthians 11 when you said that, Paul saying, “Imitate me as I imitate Christ,” Paul saying as far as I imitate him right now, would you imitate me too? But in the ways that I don’t, don’t.

Craig Douglas:
Exactly.

Joshua Scott:
So particularly if we could zoom in on a Christian family, so I’ll use my brother. So, my brother and his wife, they have three kids. They’re Christians, they love the Lord and they are raising up their children in the discipline and the instruction of the Lord. That’s Ephesians six, that’s what God’s called them to do. Should I think of myself as having a part in that discipleship? Or because they’re the primary disciplers of those kids should I kind of see myself as almost kind of stepping away and being a bystander, just kind of a support to that work?

Craig Douglas:
Well, I think ministry is wherever we are and whoever we’re around. I remember being at Briercrest and it just occurred to me in maybe my third or fourth year, here we are training for ministry, but there’s needs all around us not being met. So, what is that? Because that need we see, and you think of a good Samaritan, right? I mean, comes along, somebody sees a need, he deals with it and the others didn’t. So, I think, yeah, if they’re in our sphere of influence, then we have an amazing opportunity to help them out, to be disciplers.

Joshua Scott:
Yeah, that’s good. So what I’m hearing you say is we actually ought to think, not necessarily in these different zones, this is who I’m ministering to, but actually that I’m a minister of the gospel, and everybody around me is somebody who needs to hear the gospel and be led in the ways of Christ. Is that what I’m hearing you say?

Craig Douglas:
Absolutely, yeah. I mean there are needs around us everywhere we go, every single day. And maybe in the morning we should just be praying, “God, help me see those opportunities.” And certainly, relatives along the lines of that as well. Again, I think the main thing is when you have opportunity to spend time with them, be an influence, be part of their community, show them what it means to follow Jesus, especially through the tough times. I think we need to let people into our lives and see that we’re struggling, and that Christ makes a difference when things are tough. It’s not just this idealistic thing, well I’m going to follow Christ and one day go to heaven. But what difference does He make when I’m going through the crap that we deal with. And so, I think as part of the community, we need to be open with each other and be an influence, be there for them. It doesn’t need to be a formal thing; it just needs to be an influence.

Joshua Scott:
That’s good. So, if we were to shift then, the conversation to a non-Christian family, because it almost in some way feels, I think to most of us, like a totally different world. When we’re talking about the friends that I have at church who have kids who are raising them in the knowledge of the Lord. My relationship with those kids is very different than my relationship with the kids of my friends who are non-Christians, who are out drinking every weekend, and their kids are going to school and they’re learning everything that they’re learning from their friend group. It feels like a totally different thing. So, what should I see my role to be in those relationships with those kids, where they don’t even know Christ?

Craig Douglas:
Yeah, and it’s trickier. I mean, if we think of discipleship as formal teaching, we’re not necessarily going to have that opportunity. But again, if we see discipleship as spending time with and having a godly influence, that’s a great opportunity.

Joshua Scott:
That’s good. So when I think about those other families and their kids who don’t know Christ, say their parents encourage things that I know biblically are not healthy, that biblically are even morally, we’d say wrong, say a parent who’s encouraging their underage kid to be drinking, “Go and party, go do whatever you want.” And I know kids who are told that from their parents. How should I think of myself as stepping into that? Do I have the right to supplant the teaching of their parents and say, “You know what? Actually, this isn’t good.” Should I think in that way?

Craig Douglas:
Well, I wouldn’t call it supplanting, but rather showing them that there are other choices out there. I mean, we know that most, if not all kids actually want boundaries. And it’s so important that they can learn to set their own boundaries, especially if their parents aren’t setting any for them. And the funny thing is I think a lot of parents don’t want their kids living like they do, but they have trouble teaching that because of the example they’re setting. We don’t want to be perceived as ever taking over the parental role, but I think, you know I had lots of people come alongside me when I was younger and influence me, and so by the time I was a teenager, I think their influence on me was greater than my parents was.
At camp, it’s pretty natural because parents send you their kids, which often amazes me. But of course, we’re also trying to let the parents know that this is what we’re going to be teaching them. And yet most of the kids who come to our camp are completely unchurched. And so, it is a real privilege to have them come to us. But I think a lot more is caught than taught. And so, wherever we are, it’s how we’re living our life and how we’re dealing with situations. I mean for instance, at Timberline we talk about making sure the kids hear the gospel explained very clearly, at least 10 times during the week of camp. Which again, it’s really important because these kids come, they don’t know, they’ve never heard of Adam and Eve for instance. I mean, they don’t know anything about God or about the gospel.
And so we want to make the gospel clear, in songs, the speaker, staff testimonies they hear at campfire, and so on. But if that gospel message isn’t accompanied by us living out our faith in front of these kids, it’s not going to count for a lot. God can still use what he will, but our effectiveness in ministry to unchurched kids has so much to do with how they see us living out our lives. And again, when things get tough, how we respond after we screw up, I think is really key. And so, I think our role is speaking into kids’ lives, but also just living a life with Jesus that’s transparent and real.

Joshua Scott:
Right, that’s good. You make me think of something that my mentor was teaching me as I was stepping into ministry, and it was the idea of how do you learn to spot fake money? You don’t learn it by studying fake money because there’s all sorts of fake money, there will always be a different kind, but you learn by studying the real thing. And that’s how you know what fake looks like. So, kids to be able to see that that is a life that is really alive, that person actually enjoys being who they are. When they see that, they realize just what they’re missing.
So I think that’s a good point, just the example that we lead. So, you already have kind of brought us here, but let me ask this question particularly: How do we engage those kids in the way that you do at camp? How do we engage them with the gospel? How do we get to that conversation? Because as much as we lead with the lives that we display, right? They see what we have, in the end, we need to share that they’re lost in sin and they need a Saviour. They need Christ to redeem them. And so how do I get to that conversation?

Craig Douglas:
That’s a huge question. And I think part of it is helping them to see the longing in their hearts that is being fulfilled. And I think all of us know, or at least hope that there’s something or someone out there that’s bigger than we are, that can help us. I mean, as adults, we all put on this great show for everyone of who we want people to think we are. But deep inside of us, this little kid is there, that desperately wants to be loved, desperately wants to be assured that it’s all going to be okay, and desperately wants to go home to Mommy and Daddy. You know, that may just be my inner child speaking out.
But really, we all have this need inside us. And as we get older, I think a lot of people just begin to believe the lie that there’s nothing out there, that what they see and hear and taste and smell and feel, that’s all there is. And so, as we get older, maybe we get jaded, but deep inside we have these unfulfilled longings. And I think the gospel speaks to that need and that longing. And so, I think kids are more open to that. They haven’t become so jaded. And so, they need to be told and shown that a relationship with God is possible, and that that relationship with Him, and that forgiveness that they can receive through Christ will truly meet their deepest needs.
And I think beyond that, they need to be taught. They need to learn about the character of God, who He is. They need to hear stories that tell of His goodness, His holiness, His faithfulness, His love and so on. And then they can know that what they need most is a Saviour, and then that God has provided a way through Jesus.

Joshua Scott:
I remember my first time when I was speaking at Timberline there when I was invited to come and join you guys. You said these two things to me, and I think that they were good for me to hear, but I think it might be really good for our listeners to hear. First one was that you said, before we went there you were talking about not wanting to scare them into the Kingdom. You’re not just pulling the fear card of eternal damnation when you’re just sharing the gospel. You’re drawing them by the love of Christ to Christ. But the second thing you said to me was to not take the place of the Holy Spirit. And I wonder if you could just elaborate on those two things, because particularly that second point I think is a really critical thing for us to understand in our sharing of the gospel.

Craig Douglas:
Yeah. I don’t think anybody needs to be scared into the Kingdom. And I think those two points are probably connected. And I’m amazed that you remember that, because I couldn’t remember at all what I had said to you. So that’s great. You were listening, somebody was listening to this, fantastic.
But I think God woos us into His Kingdom, right? He loves us and He desires us to follow Him because He knows that’s the best thing for us. And I think sometimes the thing that we often want to do is convince people that they need a Saviour. And yet that’s not our job. I mean, Paul talked about, sowing seeds, and at camp we talk about that a lot. We can’t make kids turn to Christ. And I think it’s irresponsible for us to do that and to pressure kids in any way. But we also know that when the Word of God goes out, He promises it’s going to accomplish its purpose.
And so that’s why we want to stick to the gospel. We don’t want to come up with self-help ideas and all that kind of thing, because the gospel is powerful. And God works through it and His Holy Spirit convicts and His Holy Spirit draws people in. And so just by simply explaining the gospel, and when we give our testimony at campfire, I tell my leaders in training for instance, that you can include the gospel in there in about 10 seconds. It’s really easy to put into your testimony. So just by explaining the gospel, I think that opens up the heavens in such a way that the Holy Spirit can just take that and work in people’s hearts and minds.

Joshua Scott:
It also seems to me like something, that we got to bathe in prayer. If it’s something that I actually can’t convince them of, well, if God’s the one to convince them, I guess I should be coming to Him to ask Him to convince. That was something that struck me as you shared that with me that day. But I wonder if we could speak just for a moment to the parent who might be listening, or the soon to be parent, or the one-day parent. Knowing again that God has called parents to be the primary disciplers of their children, how important do you think it is to invite others into that work? Say, your youth pastor and sending your kids to youth group, or to Timberline Ranch Camp? Like how important is it to involve others in the discipleship of our children?

Craig Douglas:
Well, I’m so glad that we have solid youth groups and youth group leaders around to help kids through those tough teen years especially. But I would say this to parents and those who will someday be parents. You can’t leave it to your church to train up your children. It may be hard to start, but your kids need to see you living it out as well. They’ve got to see that your priorities include fellowship with other believers, like church. Spending time in God’s Word, praying, serving, giving generously, making decisions based on having Christ at the centre of your home, and so on. And that’s really where it starts. By all means take advantage of the community of believers, but don’t abdicate your responsibility to them.

Joshua Scott:
So I hear the saying all the time, “It takes a village,” right? “It takes a village to raise a child,” is there something to that?

Craig Douglas:
Oh, absolutely. I wouldn’t be the follower of Jesus and leader I am today if not for the village. But parents need to take a primary responsibility for the kids discipleship. But we also need to work together to look out for one another, and one another’s kids. Yeah, the community is so important.

Joshua Scott:
So I’m hearing you say that as annoying as kids might be sometimes, and I’m sure you probably experience this a lot at Timberline, there is a lot of value in us looking at those kids and thinking, I need to be involved in their discipleship and their following after Jesus.

Craig Douglas:
Yeah. And I mean, I think we find kids annoying sometimes, it’s seems to be a lot of the time when they’re not getting the kind of attention that they crave from adults, is when they seem to be most annoying. We’re looking at a generation of young adults right now, the majority of which seem to see little value in church. And I think a lot of that is because they haven’t been discipled, because their worldview is being developed through social media and public schools that mean well, but don’t know Christ. And Joshua, it’s a battle for the mind. As it says in Romans 12:2, “Unless our minds are renewed by Christ and His Word, there is no transformation,” and we end up just thinking and acting like everyone else.
I think we’ve got to engage their hearts and their minds by teaching them formally, and informally, who Jesus is and the difference He can make in every part of their lives. We don’t teach kids to recognize, to discern right from wrong. They’ll be taught, but it won’t be what we want them to learn. So, my wife and I, we ended up mostly homeschooling our kids for various reasons, which by the way my wife swore she would never do, that should teach her not to swear. But I think public schools, they can be okay if parents are dedicated to debriefing with their kids about what they’re learning, and if the parents are spending their time teaching them from God’s Word as well. And I also think the Christian schools won’t save your kid if you’re expecting your kids to follow Jesus just because they went to a Christian school.
And so it still comes back to where it has to start in the home, and then be supported by the Christian community. And sometimes I think we got to go, why are we so busy? What is so important that is keeping us from doing the most important things? And you know, my kids aren’t perfect. They’ll be the first to tell you that. But yeah, they were discipled both by us and others, and they’re seeking God now. They’re both in Bible school now training to be Christian leaders. So, I think discipleship works, we just need to put the time into it.

Joshua Scott:
That’s great. So, the last thought, the last question that I have for you is on the note of the discipler them self, is there a benefit to discipling a young person for the discipler, their own growth in following after Christ? Have you seen this maybe with the cabin leaders that you’ve worked with at camp, that they lead these kids and somehow their faith is bolstered?

Craig Douglas:
Oh, thank you for that question. I’ve always said that camp is for the campers, but it really is the leaders who benefit the most. And I think that goes for any kind of working with kids and youth, we learn so much from doing ministry, building relationships and answering tough questions. The kids always come up with these crazy questions, and you have to go back and go, okay, have I really thought that through? How do I answer that in a genuine way without just a bad answer? And so, working with kids, it just challenges us so much. And I think one of the other, the real benefits of working with kids at camp that I found, was I learned parenting skills from my teen years working at camp. And it’s great to be able to practice on other people’s kids, right?
But you know, and I remember this one week I had this particularly difficult child, and just really struggling with him. And I remember the director came by and came beside me and said, he said, “Craig, you’re going to make a really good dad someday.” And he spoke words of truth, words of life into me. And I always realized, I thought about that a lot in the years to come, and when I became a dad, I was like, yeah, you know what? I have no idea what I’m doing, but maybe I do because I’ve worked with kids. Maybe I have a chance to be a good dad. And I kept remembering what I had been told, “You’re going to be a good dad someday,” and that was from the experience of working with kids.
And so yeah, we learn so much, we benefit so much. And I see these young adults, and so many people say, “Oh, the young adults of this day, they’re,” this or that or other thing. Man, we have got so many quality people coming to work at camp and they’re learning, they’re growing. Yeah, they mess up sometimes, but what a great place to mess up when you’re in community with people who care about you and love you and support you. And they’re growing, and they’re moving on to other ministry, whether it’s formal ministry or just ministry in their schools or, again, ministry is the people you run into each day. It’s amazing to see. I think one of the greatest privileges for me as a camp director is just to see year after year, these dozens and dozens of young people who come in, and they serve, and they learn, and they grow. And they really get what it means to follow Christ and serve Him.

Joshua Scott:
Awesome. Yeah, I think this is such a good reminder for us to think about the kids in our lives, the kids who know Christ, the kids who don’t, and think, how can I be an example of somebody following after Jesus that they look to and say, “I want to be like that.” I think it’s a great reminder. So, Craig, thanks so much for joining us today. I really appreciate you coming on.

Craig Douglas:
Oh, this was great. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Kourtney Cromwell:
It was so good to have Craig with us for this episode and I’m really glad that we could start this conversation on indoubt. It might not be something we talk about all the time, but it’s a good thing to ask yourself, “How am I playing a part in raising up the next generation?” If you’d like more information on Craig and Timberline Ranch Camp, you can go to our website and you’ll find all the links on the episode page.
At the end of last week’s episode. I did mention that indoubt is going into our Christmas campaign, and we’re hoping to fundraise $75,000. With your help that can be made possible. If you head to our website, you can check out the Donate page, and on December 10th you’ll also see the first of three exclusive indoubt Christmas videos, featuring Isaac, Joshua and Daniel, as they each discuss Christmas from a different perspective. So, I hope you join us for next week’s episode.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.