Ep. 238: The COVID-19 Church

Welcome to the indoubt podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Erika:

Hey, this is Erika and welcome to another episode of indoubt. This week’s guest is joining us all the way from South Carolina. It’s Carl Barnhill, the owner and creative director of a ministry called Twelve:Thirty Media. Twelve:Thirty Media is all about using media and an online presence to share the good news of Christ. And in this COVID-19 moment, Carl and his team are doing everything they can to assist pastors, churches, and everyday Christians at home experiencing church online. This conversation between Daniel and Carl is one that we hope you’ll find helpful as you navigate the new normal of online church and how to find community through your screen.

Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome to indoubt, my name’s Daniel Markin, and I’m joined today with our guest Carl Barnhill, who, well I’ll let Carl introduced himself, but he is sort of a church media mogul, I like to think. He has a lot of experience in working online with church and online church in particular. And we thought this would be a really fitting conversation, especially in the COVID season that we’ve found ourselves in. So, Hey, Carl, good to see you. Good to be with you. And how are things going, man?

Carl Barnhill:

Daniel, man, thanks so much for inviting me on, really appreciate it, man. And yeah, things are going great. I’m in South Carolina, in the States. So it depends on what state you’re in, whether the spikes are up and down or everywhere, or mask or no mask, or we’re good, we’re not good. So it kind of depends on where you are, but we’re doing good down here in South Carolina.

Daniel Markin:

Well, Carl, tell me a bit about yourself and for our listeners, some of your story, tell us about your family, but then also how you got into doing what you’re doing now with digital media.

Carl Barnhill:

Yeah. So personally, my wife and I have been married for 10 years. We have two awesome sons, seven and nine. We just got a dog to the family. So another female in the house, so a golden retriever that we’re having fun with. So that’s personally, but professionally, my career started out at Precept Ministries International, is where it kind of… I’d done a radio station before and I’d worked at Chick-fil-A and some other things, but kind of what started me in the media realm was Precept Ministries International. And so picture this, I’m like a young 20 something and I go in and I get a job at an old lady Bible teaching program. That was me. So Kay Arthur, great friend of mine, went on to direct her a TV and radio program and lead the media department at Precept. So that was a great experience because it put me with a bunch of veteran people in media and also veterans in their faith. So it really grounded me really well and kind of taught me that, “Hey, don’t be too big for your britches. Hey, humility is a big thing, so don’t act like you know it all.” So, I keep some of this stuff to this day. Even though God has put me in some different places, I have some ideas, I don’t think of myself as an expert or anything like that. I see myself as coming alongside the church and being a servant to the church and what people are doing in their churches and in their worship experiences. So I served at Precept for awhile, and then I served on two church staffs, one in Jackson, Mississippi, a church there, and then one in South Carolina, New Spring Church. Both of those churches were pretty large, megachurches, big churches. Where I did media content, I led volunteer teams, I helped produce and craft worship experiences at both of those churches. And then five or six years ago, well really before that, but the Lord called me to really help more churches than just the church that I was serving. And so that’s where Twelve:Thirty Media was born. It really comes from Mark 12:30, when Jesus talks about the greatest commandment and how we are to love God and love people. So we can have the best worship experiences on the planet. We can do everything right in the church world, in ministry, but if we’re not loving God and loving people, it’s all worthless. And so that’s where it came from. And so the goal with Twelve:Thirty Media is to help churches with their worship experience. So that’s me, in a nutshell.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. My question for you is, why do you think that Christians have so often been late to the game in technology? Because you’ve done work with mega-churches, but then I’m probably thinking, “Hey, it’s very common for you to get a call from a very small church saying, “Hey, we need some help here because nothing has been updated. And we haven’t adapted in a very long time.” Why do you think that is?

Carl Barnhill:

This might sound weird because I’m rarely going to talk about money. Okay? Especially when it comes to ministry, because I know that prices need to be different based on ministry and stuff like that. But I think that some of it is money. I think that sometimes it takes a while for the leadership of a church to realize that this is an area that we need to spend our money and resources on. Whether that is outsourcing a company, whether that is full-time staff, whether that is things like that, I think that it takes a while, or it takes different things to let senior leadership at a church see the value in crafting experiences that will hit, or that will minister to, a variety of audiences. And I think a lot of times the senior pastor role, because in a lot of churches it can be committee run, but they can also be kind of the top dog and make whatever decisions they want to. So sometimes they can be a little bit stuck in their ways. And so I think it’s that. I think it’s, “I know how to do this. And this is how we need to reach millennials.” Well, Boss, you’re 70 years old. Maybe we should talk to a millennial. I’m not trying to deem you, but maybe you should listen to someone that’s 20 years old, 30 years old, and put them in the room of the committee of deacons that you’re all in your seventies. I’m not trying to be mean, but… So maybe it’s that, maybe there’s a piece of those two things, maybe just kind of a little bit of stuck in our ways and a little bit of just seeing the value of spending our money, time, energy there. And I don’t want you to hear me bash in churches or bashing pastors. My dad’s a pastor. But I think that that’s part of the reason. I hope that made sense.

Daniel Markin:

No, definitely. And I think so much of that, because I’m actually studying to become a pastor as well. I’m doing my master’s currently. And I’ve grown up similar to you, as a pastor’s kid. And my dad was a worship pastor, so often he was like involved having to buy really expensive gear. Like seriously, a soundboard, you’re looking at 80 grand sometimes. And to many churches, that’s just really not a feasible thing.

Carl Barnhill:

That’s true. But there are other ways to do that. You can purchase a refurbished piece, or a larger church is getting rid of old gear. You know? So there are definitely ways to do that. And I think it’s some of that. It’s some of, the tithe money, sometimes churches just don’t have the money that maybe a Hollywood film studio would, and so they just do not have the technology to get there. But I think of a couple of things, one, the technology has gotten easier to get to and is less expensive. That’s one piece. Another piece is, and this isn’t a sales pitch, but companies like ours that are out there that, part of our mission is to help churches who cannot afford a creative team. So I think that there are more companies like us that are out there that are helping the church in this way, in instead of buying three staff members full time at 30, 40 grand a year, you’re going to spend a third of that, the third of a price of one staff member on a company like us. And now you can get to where you need to get to and not have to spend a whole bunch of money and be on par with other churches.

Daniel Markin:

Absolutely.

Carl Barnhill:

I hope that makes sense.

Daniel Markin:

No, definitely. It definitely does. And the part too that you’re thinking about was leadership has to be willing to adapt, willing to change. And that has never been more relevant than right now, in regards to the COVID-19 thing. There’s so much media going on. Like you go on Twitter, there’s so many different regulations, but at this point, like this has sent everything completely online and there’s been so many churches that have basically been like, “Okay, we are going completely online.” There has been some churches who have basically said, “Hey, look, we don’t have the resources the time or the talent to do this. And it’s just not who we are. So check out this other church, they’re doing a great job.” So my question for you is this COVID-19 hits, during this time as you’ve been working with churches, what has been the most surprising thing that you’ve noticed or the most surprising thing that you’ve experienced, and then what’s been one of the most frustrating things that you have experienced during this time?

Carl Barnhill:

Man, I would say the most surprising thing is what you just said, is that all churches everywhere, all of them, have been forced to go online. Who would have thought or imagined every single church in the country or close to the world would have to close their doors and not let anybody in for months at a time? Who would have thought that? And so I think the most surprising thing is that everyone is online. We are forced to be online. We’ve had to learn online and every church has had to jump into the game. So the church that’s like, “Not our culture, we’re not online.” Well, buddy, it’s your culture now. Sorry. Either that or… I would not lean towards sending people to another church. You would want to probably keep them engaged in your church. So yeah, that’s been the most surprising thing is that, every everybody and their brother, every single church is online.

Daniel Markin:

And I think too, that it’s gone on longer than we would have expected.

Carl Barnhill:

It has. It has. Yeah. But you know what, man? One of the most surprising things that I’ve seen is pastor surprised at the number of people that are watching online. So, it’s surprised some people who were not in the game before, when they’ve jumped online, they’re like, “Whoa, we have triple, quadruple the number of people watching online. Whoa!” Like that’s really surprised people. And I think that’s fun. And I think if you were to pin a pastor down, they might not say this publicly, but I think some of them are not as jumping to get back in church because they’re being able to minister to sometimes three times the amount of people than has actually come to their physical location. So that’s been really exciting to see and has jazzed some pastors up because they’re realizing that they’re not just ministering to the people in one physical building, one physical location. Now their doors are open to the entire world. And so I think some pastors that have seen views from their Facebook feeds of church, of people watching all over the world, they’re blown away by that. And so I think that’s been the most surprising, most exciting thing. You were asking me about most frustrating, I would say for me and maybe for maybe folks in our circles, I think not being able to travel, I think has been most frustrating. Like for me, not being able to go and speak at conferences or network with people, hang out with people in our space, man, that physical connection with people at a conference or at a church setting or whatever, not being able to travel and get to see people in person. Yes, there’s been community on Zoom. We can be a little bit screen fatigued, a little bit Zoomed out. So I think that we thrive on physical interaction with people, or I do at least. And so I think that’s been the most frustrating is man, I can’t travel anywhere. I can’t go see people and network.

Daniel Markin:

Definitely. Totally. Okay. So here’s a question for you, in my research, I did some digging into you, Carl and I found out you are-

Carl Barnhill:

Oh, no. Oh, no.

Daniel Markin:

You’re a fan of 24, the show.

Carl Barnhill:

I am a fan. Dude.

Daniel Markin:

A fan of Jack Bauer. So listen, were there any moments, because that show, the premise is essentially, it’s looking at 24 hours that played out, but each episode is like one hour. Right? So it’s 24 hours of this guy’s life during like a major crisis. And my question for you is, have there been any like 24 hour crunch periods that you’ve had to pull all-nighters, anything like that, any stories you got of doing church ministry, doing work like this where you’re like, “My goodness, this day will never end,” and were literally about to pull an all-nighter to try and get this, this thing to happen.

Carl Barnhill:

First of all, I love that you did not prep me on that question. That is awesome. And you had to dig deep, man. That that show was I don’t know, 15, 20 years ago. I loved 24, man. Jack Bauer, “Get me a Hacksaw.” Thousands, millions of lives are at stake. Man, that was the show back in the day. Okay. So yes. I would say that in the church world, Christmas and Easter are those times. And even with what we do now at Twelve:Thirty, Christmas and Easter are still that for us. Because even though we’re getting it done a little bit early because they need it to practice with, rehearse with, like say, if they need a lyric video, or a bumper video, a opener video, something like that, we’re getting into them early, but yeah, leading up to Easter and Christmas. And then if there’s any revisions, or if there’s any like, “Hey, this messed up, we need it real quick,” or, “Our click track’s not right,” or something like that. Yeah. Christmas and Easter is tough. And I would say, when I was working in a church, my family just, you got to prepare your family for those times in ministry, especially if you’re in production or something like that. Tell your family, “You’re not going to see me for a day or two.” Like, that’s going to be the way it is. And then, “I’m going to get more days off or make up that time later. So here’s how we’re going to work that,” and talk with your spouse about that. That’s very, very important, to talk through that. But I know that’s kind of not necessarily a 24 hour period. I’m sure that Christmas Eve, the day before Christmas, day before Easter, I’ve spent some serious all-nighters doing those events.

Daniel Markin:

Well here, let me jump this way then, because we’re talking about screen, you kind of just brought up Zoom fatigue and I do want to go there. But in my research, in some of my reading, one of the things that I’ve seen is that younger generations, they found that there’s increased amounts of anxiety and depression among this generation. And in direct correlation with that is the increased amount of screen time. And my question for you is, have you found this to be the case in churches that you’re working with, and even with those that you’re working with, or maybe even in your own life, has it taken a toll on you to be always on a screen all the time?

Carl Barnhill:

Yeah. So I’m going to use a personal example. So I have seven and nine year old boys and we have had to limit them to one hour of screen time a day. And by screen time, we mean like on their iPad or playing Xbox or watching Minecraft on YouTube or whatever they’re watching. So yes we have. So when it was longer than that on their iPad, we would definitely notice more times we needed to lay down the discipline hammer. Yeah. And we realized it was in direct correlation with the screen time. It was amazing. You know what’s interesting though is, older games and older TV shows did not have the same effect on our boys, as new were more advanced games and shows. Here’s what I mean, it’s like if they were playing WII, or if they were playing like say an old school Nintendo or something like that, that would engage their mind a little bit more, they went less berserk. But now I think that the graphics are so intense and you’re so engulfed in what’s in the screen, that yeah, it takes a toll. I don’t know the psychology of it. But yeah, it takes a toll on your behavior, your mental state. Absolutely, yes. And so, I would encourage… And look, we make media content for a living. So we want you to watch a screen and I’m telling you the reverse, I’m telling you, go outside to a park, take a walk, play cards, things like that, sit down and talk to people, hang out. That’s going to be meaningful and that’s going to help your relationships over being on a screen all day. And I think another thing that helps is, on your Apple iPhone, it will tell you, your screen time report of how many hours you’ve spent on your screen each day.

Carl Barnhill:

So in fact, my wife was looking at that the other day going, “Man, I can’t believe how much time I spend out of my day on my screen.” It was like four hours, five hours or something crazy, or longer. And she was like, “I’m really going to try to be cautious of that. Be aware of that.” Because it does affect your relationships and behavior. So I don’t know the psychology of it. I’m not a counselor or anything like that, but yeah, I think there’s a correlation there.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. One of the things that makes me think of is attention spans, because we often get made fun of nowadays, like back in the day, people could sit down three, four hours and read, and it’s hard for many of us, myself included, to sit down for 20 minutes and read without distraction.

Carl Barnhill:

Right. We choOse the audio book instead or something like that.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah, or something like that. Right? Like they would talk about music videos and how music videos change so quickly. Like it’s always a new image, new image, new image, new image. And then if you think about people on Instagram, it’s another image, another image. Like our brains are processing things so quickly, which has limited our attention spanS. And so here’s my question is, how long is too long for one of these church services nowadays? Like, because churches gone online, should this be like an hour programming? How long is too long for a sermon in your thought?

Carl Barnhill:

That’s a great question. When COVID first hit, that’s one thing I was really talking to churches about is, you cannot have the same length of worship experience online as you do in person, if it’s not your live stream. Like if you’re a prerecording and putting your service together, do not have it be as long as your normal service. And so I would say, I’d say 45 minutes to an hour is kind of pushing the ceiling, max. Okay. If you usually do a 90 minute in person, cut that by 30, 45 minutes. That means you can’t do a five or six on worship set, it’s two songs and then move on to something else. Yes. Is attention span a deal? Yeah. I would say a normal length of a sermon bumper that we produce, 30 to 60 seconds. If it goes over that you start to lose people.

Daniel Markin:

So you;ve talked about the Sunday experience, kind of the worship experience or the Sunday service. Tell me a bit about what your thoughts are on churches midweek. So for example, lots of churches, you have small groups, community groups, groups that are meeting usually in people’s homes during the week, a lot of them have had to switch to Zoom. Right? And so I know that my group, like I had a community group and we switched to Zoom and it was okay because I was able to screen share, and then have the Bible passage on the screen so people could kind of follow along. But I noticed that in my community group, we just began to see a drop off. And I remember saying to my wife, I’m like, “We just can’t take this personally. I get it. Like everyone’s just onscreen so much that last thing they want to do is be on a fifth Zoom call in the evening. And so what have you found out for churches, what have they been doing with small groups?

Carl Barnhill:

Yeah. Zoom. In fact, we wrote an entire guide, Zoom guide for churches on our website that helps churches with this. That told them how to connect with Zoom, how to get an account. I had some fun games to do, some interesting activities you can do, and how to engage small groups and all that. And it’s helpful to churches. And I think that Zoom calls are definitely a solution. But I agree with you. I saw this maybe, two months ago, exactly that. Just kind of a downhill slope of… We did a round table, like it was every Monday, and it was live, and anybody could join. And we started out with like, I don’t know, 60, 70 people on our Zoom call at one time. And then over the weeks, it kind of dropped off and dropped off. And I’m with you, you can’t take it personally. We’re all suffering from screen fatigue. Oh my gosh, it’s just, we’re on a screen all day long. And we have to be, because that’s how we have to connect with to people right now. As soon as COVID can kind of let up, I would love to see some more in person stuff, as safely as we can. We need that physical interaction, I think.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. Have you seen any unique solutions in regards to small groups?

Carl Barnhill:

Mostly it’s virtual meetings, it’s a Zoom, it’s Google Hangouts, it’s Teams, that sort of thing. I’ve seen like backyard things. So if you’re in a neighborhood and you all sit out in your driveway and put a movie screen up and watch a movie together, some outside gatherings, things like that, or you’re outside a movie and you have somebody on their phone or FaceTime or Zoom call. I’ve seen some stuff like that. Or even drive up church, it’s not small group, but drive up kind of experience where you have people on stage and then a lot of people in their cars, in the parking lot. People have gotten creative that way. But I think the most effective small group tool right now, online, is Zoom.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. And hopefully like as restrictions let up and stuff, that people can be together. But yeah. And I think everyone’s trying to make the best of it. But I also get it if people aren’t as engaged, because a lot of reasons a lot of people join community groups is to have those relationships. Right? They learn a lot on the Sunday. They’re happy to study the Bible, and they want to study the Bible together with people at a Bible study. But I think just being with other humans is one of the main draws for that. Right?

Carl Barnhill:

I would say, if anything, on a Zoom call, if you can, make it interesting, be intentional about it, pour some energy into creating a great experience with your small group. So if everybody is sitting there and like, “What do you guys want to talk about?” And nobody says anything. Yeah, that gets boring. And I’m like, “I’m not going to go back. Why am I going to do that?” So if the leader, or if you can kind of text around and say, “Hey, do you guys want to play Zoom bingo or catchphrase,” or whatever the game might be on Zoom.” Introduce games, introduce some fun, maybe shorten it. So instead of going an hour, hour and a half, maybe you limit it to 30 minutes max, and so you’re kind of craving for it the next time. So maybe things like that can kind of help those go a little bit better. But yeah, it’s tough, man. COVID’s kind of put us in a bind and a little bit.

Daniel Markin:

Totally. Here’s my next question then, how can we make church more meaningful in our kind of Zoom or media agent? And what I mean by that is, one of the main things the church does is when the church gathers, we come, we sing together, we pray together, we hear the word preached. Then a lot of this, and especially this is elevated in a lot of church traditions is, you come to the table. Right? You come to take communion. And that’s, a lot of times, not happening. And I’ve heard a lot of pushback against church being online because basically people are saying, “Look, we’re just basically consuming another TV show.” And so there’s been a lot of people who’ve been quite frustrated with some of the ways churches have been doing things because you’re basically watching a few songs, there’s barely kind of any time in prayer, you’re getting along sermon, a couple more songs, and then a goodbye, see you next week, and it’s just no different than a TV show. What ways do you think we can make these weekend services more meaningful?

Carl Barnhill:

Yeah. Great question. So I think that if you are still 100% online, here’s what I would suggest, I would suggest you do a prerecorded packaged service. So this is not like put a camera in the back of the room and just live stream whatever’s happening on stage. And a lot of churches are on their way back. So this might not still work, but when COVID first hit and this was my strong suggestion is, if you’re 100% online, prerecord your service. So you’re going to prerecord songs from your worship band. Then you’re going to prerecord a separate segment with your pastor. Then also when you package that service together, add interesting elements to your worship experience. So here’s what I mean. I saw churches that would have like a little girl do a recipe. Like I saw one that would do like, “Here’s how to make guacamole when you’re at home.” And it’s just the two minute, three minute video of somebody that everybody in the church knows that little girl, and she’s showing me how to make homemade guacamole. Or testimonies of nurses, “Hey guys, thanks so much for praying for us here. Let me give you an update on the medical field.” This is a person that everybody knows and knows up. and it’s easy. Just record something on your iPhone, send it to your church editor person and they package it in and drop it in the worship experience. So maybe your countdown is filled with testimonies or you have an opener video that goes into your worship set that has a bunch of either life-change stories or testimonies or different recipes or different outside activities, “Here’s a family activity that you can do with your family while you’re in quarantine,” kind of thing. So that, it’s interesting. It’s not just you’re watching a worship set and your pastor. Those elements need to be there, but as much as you can do to keep it very fresh and interesting. Another idea is to do virtual choir videos.

Daniel Markin:

I’ve seen a bunch of those, right?

Carl Barnhill:

Yeah, exactly. So we’ve produced a lot of those for churches. And the thinking here is, you’re including your choir or your band members or group of people so that when people watch and they’re like, “Oh, that’s Joe. I know Joe. Oh dude, he is singing like crazy.” Instead of just me watching worship leader and pastor every time. What if you have somebody different do your message or a portion of your message or read a scripture? What if you had somebody different lead worship? Or just do a song from one person or a virtual… I’m just saying change up to where your people never know what they’re going to see the next week. It’s not going to be, “Oh, I know what’s happening. It’s to be three songs of the same thing and it’s going to be my pastor and whatever.” That type of thing does not work in an online environment. you have to keep things fresh for your audience. And so that’s just one suggestion of, “How do we make it more meaningful?” You keep it fresh and you have new ideas involved in crafting your worship experience.

Daniel Markin:

Right. One of the ones I thought was really cool was, I saw a church they said, “Hey,” they either said the week before or at the beginning of the service said, “Look, we’re taking communion today. So pause the video and go find some juice or bread,” or the week before they say, “Make sure you have that around.” And they said, “At some point, like after the sermon, the video will come up again and we’ll take communion together.” And within my theology, I’m okay with that. Because I believe that when people are gathered and they come to the table, they are basically sitting at the same table as every Christian ever has. Right? And so a lot of people would say, “Well, the church isn’t gathered,” but you are. You’re gathering at that same table. Right? And so I thought that was a real kind of meaningful way to be able to do that. And then I think, yeah, you can sprinkle in other times where you’re like, “Hey, listen, here’s three things that we want you to pray for,” keep them on the screen and be like, “Just take some moment now as a family or whoever’s around you and pray for these.” I think that gives audience engagement. Well, Carl, listen, as we come into a landing, thank you for your time. Thank you for being a part of this and joining us and allowing us to learn from your experiences and your expertise.

Carl Barnhill:

Yeah. Well, Daniel, thank you so much, really appreciate you guys and what you do at your ministry. And man, you’re a blessing to the church and to the kingdom. So really appreciate it, man.

Erika:

We are living in the new normal of COVID-19 that has forever changed the way we look at connecting with others. This pandemic has changed the way we shop, eat, vacation, and even attend church. We hope this episode with Carl Barnhill has helped you understand a little bit better, how to move forward in this new reality that we’re living in. If you’d like to hear more from Carl or check out Twelve:Thirty Media, you can head over to twelvethirty.media. They’ve got tons of resources for pastors, church members, and those who are exploring Christianity for the first time. If you’ve been enjoying the indoubt podcast, we’d love to hear from you. Shoot us a message on social media. We’re on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, or send us an email to info@indoubt.ca letting us know how in doubt has shaped your world view or answered some of the toughest questions that life has thrown at you. Thanks again for joining us for this episode of indoubt. And don’t forget to come back next week, where we’ll have Daniel back again, for part two of his conversation with Wesley Hough, as they discuss the important question of whether or not we can trust the Bible, and how can we that the Bible is an accurate and true historical document. Just because you’re not a biblical scholar does not mean that you can’t have a solid understanding of what the Bible is and how it came to be, and Wesley is here to help you get there. We’ll see you then.

Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes or Spotify or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.