Ep.42: What Does “In Christ” Actually Mean?

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, this is Andrew Marcus. Welcome to THE INDOUBT SHOW. We got a terrific program for us today. We have the old host, Isaac Dagneau, in the house today, which I’m so excited about, and we’re talking about something that has actually changed his life in the last couple of years: what it actually means to be in Christ, the significance, the definition, and how we live that out. And so we hope you enjoy today’s program. God bless.

We have Isaac Dagneau in the house. Isaac, how are you, man?

Isaac Dagneau:

I am doing very well.

Andrew Marcus:

I am so pumped that you’re here.

Isaac Dagneau:

I’m very happy. This is great.

Andrew Marcus:

We did on ChatGPT, “Tell us a little bit about Indoubt and it says, INDOUBT is a young adults program with host Isaac Dagneau.”

Isaac Dagneau:

Really?

Andrew Marcus:

They still think you are… Which I think is amazing, but you’re doing well? Family of three?

Isaac Dagneau:

Family of three.

Andrew Marcus:

Pastoring?

Isaac Dagneau:

Yes, pastoring. It’s all good. It’s just a busy season of life as some of you guys know. With little kids, it’s just busy, but it’s really good. God is good.

Andrew Marcus:

Amen, man. I was so happy to see you.

So interesting topic we’re talking about today, being in Christ, it’s very important to understand what that means, the reality of it, where we find it, and how we live that out, because I think you were mentioning this has been a big life change for you.

Isaac Dagneau:

Totally.

Andrew Marcus:

And it’s cool because we could be Christians for a long time, and be on this journey for a long time, then all of a sudden, boom, something that we’ve maybe read a lot, but just we get a glimpse of the reality, and it changes us again.

Isaac Dagneau:

Totally.

Andrew Marcus:

So maybe tell us a little bit about your journey of how this has shaped you in the last couple of years and then we can dive into it.

Isaac Dagneau:

Sure. No, that’s great. The identity that we have is in Christ, so it’s not just a title of Christian, it is an identity that we actually bear, and it is a place in a location that we live, which is in Christ.

I grew up in the church in the sense that my parents loved Jesus, I went to Sunday school, aced it, and…

Andrew Marcus:

Come on.

Isaac Dagneau:

No, no…

Andrew Marcus:

You failed.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, totally. Brutal. No, and then in school I was good, but I faltered a little bit, and then at the end of high school, came back to the Lord. Lots of people’s stories goes like that. Went to Bible college, worked here surrounded by lots of great men and women of the Lord, of God, and began pastoring over five years ago. I’ve done some graduate studies. And all the while, it wasn’t until probably three, two or three years ago, where this concept of being in Christ really became real to me.

And maybe one way to phrase it is like this, and this isn’t going to be everyone’s experience, but I think this could be relatable to some. I think a lot of people might consider their Christian life as it’s about them in the sense that they are them. They have their dreams, they have their ambitions, their aspirations. They have what they want to do, whatever. They’re taught the Gospel, that they need to repent, they need to be forgiven, or, even worse than that, just “Jesus is here to make your life better.”

And so they’re given this gospel, whether it’s an accurate-ish one about repentance or more of just a…

Andrew Marcus:

You can be happy and life will be perfect.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. But they hear that, so they’re like, “Yes! I’ll do that.” They get part of a community of people, it’s good, but what happens is they still have their life, and then you have Jesus over here that is distinct from them, and there’s some truth to that, obviously, but then Jesus is just here for them when they need Him. He’s there to help them in their own dreams, in their own aspirations.

It’s likened to this idea of a recreation center in your town. There’s a skating rink, swimming pool, exercise room. It’s like that is there to support you and to support your health. You can go there when you want. It’s voluntary. They’re not dictating your life. That’d be weird. You go there as you need, but there’s community there. It’s good there. But the biggest distinction is that it’s not personal. The recreation center is not a person. And this is the biggest distinction between that and being in Christ.

I think some people can treat the relationship with Jesus more like that, whereas what God has developed in the Bible, and we’ll get there, is to become a Christian. To really be in Christ is to have a real participation and incorporation into the person of Jesus. Huge. And I think it’s a big difference.

Andrew Marcus:

Huge.

Isaac Dagneau:

Huge. It’s massive.

Andrew Marcus:

And I feel like once we get it, life change.

And even for me, there’s stuff in my journey where, Christian for a long time, and then when Revelations like this, I become aware of the reality. It just takes me on a totally different trajectory, which is so cool. And that happened in your life a couple of years ago, just understanding this.

Isaac Dagneau:

And the guy, I got to shout out to this guy, his name is Ted. He was saved in the late sixties and the Jesus People movement. He was an outcast. He just thought he wouldn’t get anywhere. And the Lord met him. And it’s amazing, he was told when he first became a believer by this mature Christian that, “Oh, you know what, enjoy this honeymoon period with the Lord because it’s going to end, and then you’re just going to have to discipline and whatever.”

And when my brother Ted heard that, he’s like, “Absolutely not.” And this honeymoon period has never ended for him, and that was in the sixties. So he’s one of those guys where you talk to him and it’s hard to talk about the weather or politics or anything else because he just does not care. He’s just like, “Let’s get to Jesus.” And the joy just overflows in him. He’s the one… Three years ago we started walking and praying, that he really began to stretch me in my concept of what it is to truly walk in Christ Jesus.

So I’m really excited to dig into this because it is amazing. And this is not a niche, alternative, weird, unorthodox mystical thing. It’s all throughout the Bible and obviously specifically in the New Testament, the phrase “in Christ” or “in Christ Jesus” in the Lord is just dozens and dozens all throughout. So it’s there.

Andrew Marcus:

It reminds me of something similar with when we talked with Dr. John earlier this season about providence and sovereignty. It’s like when you get ahold of some of these groundbreaking, earth-shattering realities of your life, you’ll never live the same.

Isaac Dagneau:

No.

Andrew Marcus:

And it reminds me of that, too.

It also makes me think because in November we’re going to be leading into Christmas and a lot of people, they’ll take out the nativity scene and baby Jesus, and they dust them off, put them there, and then they just put them away again. It’s like that’s what we do with our actual Christian lives. We give them some attention. But no, in Christ, this is personal. This is beautiful.

Okay, so maybe with scriptural walking through passage, I know we have some passages we want to walk through, but why don’t we highlight some of the ones that really stick out to you as like, “Wow, this is something that really blessed me.” And started this journey for you and hopefully for all those who are watching.

Isaac Dagneau:

Totally.

So one of the ones that is maybe a little bit more hidden in that you have some Galatians 2:20, “I’ve been crucified with Christ, no longer I live.” Those are great passages and people know about those. This is one that’s a little bit more hidden, but when I caught ahold of it just astounded me. So one of the passages, verses, is found in 1 Corinthians. So this is a letter that Paul wrote to the people in Corinth, like 53, 55 AD-ish, around there. And after he talks about the foolishness of the message of the cross, foolishness to those like the Greeks and to the ones that are seeking for wisdom, and the utter difficulty with Jews to grasp it. He says this, he says, “And because of Him…” Him, that is God the Father. “You are in Christ Jesus who became to us wisdom from God.”

Then he explains that wisdom saying it’s righteousness, and sanctification and redemption, so that as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” So when you understand the grammar there, it sounds funny. It’s like, because of God, the Father, you Corinthians, you, Andrew Marcus, Chris, myself, you, because of God, you are in Christ Jesus, and then, listen, who became to us… So this Jesus that we have been put into, has become, to us, wisdom from God. And then when you explain the ramifications of that wisdom, we understand that to be the three most essential parts of our faith: righteousness, redemption, and sanctification. And then he goes on to say, “Because of this, you can’t boast that you are the one that’s righteous. You are the one that’s being sanctified…” Which is a fancy word of growing in your holiness, being set apart. “You’re not the one doing all those things. You haven’t redeemed yourself. It’s all in Christ Jesus.”

And this is amazing. So it’s Christ in us. So one of the ways I like to think about it is I had this idea before in my early Christian walk that Jesus did what He did on the cross, and then I receive these impersonal, mystical orb of righteousness, an orb of forgiveness, an orb of whatever. And I received these non-personal things to me. Jesus gave them to me, but they’re just here with me now, to help me in my life. Whereas the idea of being in Christ means that these mystical things are not… They’re Christ in us, which is extremely… To those watching, and to myself, that maybe struggle sometimes with sanctification growing in Lord, to know that it is Christ in me that’s actually helping me, not just some mystical thing. It’s actually Christ in me. This is amazing.

So that’s one of the foundational verses I would say.

Andrew Marcus:

And then so what does that say to the people who, because we mentioned this a couple of times, where it’s like we have our own dreams, and ambitions, and our own life and all that stuff. How does that now play a role in a person? So someone’s watching, okay, “Now what? I can’t have goals, and dreams, and ambitions anymore?” Or how does that dance work?

Isaac Dagneau:

Well, okay, so Christianity is… True, it is not for the modern, 21st century western mind, because it’s not a supplement. So when you ask that question, this is actually a very serious question, and probably there’s going to be different interpretations, but this is what the one I’ll give, is that when you come to Christ, you die. That’s just it. Baptism in itself, baptism in the water, is your union. And this is another huge, Romans 6, is another massive reality of being in Christ. You come to die with Christ and you rise again unto the new creation that you are in Christ.

And I know, I was just talking to my wife about that, when it comes to dreams and ambitions and everything, how do we reconcile these things? It has to begin with recognizing I’ve died with Christ, and I’m risen again unto a new creation with new desires and new ambitions. So yes, God gives people gifts. God gives people dreams, but they have to be now looked through the lens of your new identity in Christ Jesus.

I got to say this, one of the greatest illustrations, or analogies, I can think of when it comes to our union with Christ is marriage. It’s a literal, biblical analogy that in Ephesians chapter five, we learned that Christ’s relationship with the church is marriage. So I know that some listeners are not married. You can still understand this concept. It’s a biblical concept, so don’t feel bad using it. But I just did a wedding about, I don’t know, I forget when it was. I did a wedding a couple of years ago now, and when they have a little message, a little sermon in the wedding, I began it by saying, “Okay, everyone, welcome here. I just want to let you know this is actually a funeral.”

And the reason I said it… I know, I know, it’s maybe a bad thing. But the point I wanted to make was when we understand Genesis, and we understand how Jesus picks us up later, is that the two who are distinct persons now become one flesh, which means they have to die to their individualness and now be united unto the other person in a union. And that’s the exact same with our relationship with Jesus Christ. In fact, in 1 Corinthians chapter six, Paul is tackling the Corinthians in terms of what’s lawful, what’s not lawful. And he gets into actually sexual immorality, and he talks about the fact that, “Hey, if you’re going to go and commit sexual immorality with someone, you become one with that person.” The ramifications are huge. And then he says, “But how could you, if since you’ve been joined to the Lord and you’ve become one spirit with Him?” And that’s another verse.

So that’s 1 Corinthians 6:17, “For whoever is joined to the Lord has become one spirit with Him.” And that doesn’t mean that it may be a more Hindu, Buddhist philosophy that we all become this oneness has no distinctions between persons. That’s not what’s saying here. In the same way that I am married to my wife, we are two distinct persons, and yet we are one flesh. Jesus is a distinct person at the right hand of the Father right now, but we are one spirit together. And that is massive, again, ramifications for the way that we live our lives because it’s not just me anymore. And it’s not just me and Jesus, it’s me, Jesus. We’re one. We’re tied.

Andrew Marcus:

Man, that’s huge.

Isaac Dagneau:

It’s huge. One more thing to say on that is that all of us in this room are married. So we would have firsthand understanding that our whole lives change because of marriage. It’s not just Andrew and what Andrew wants anymore, it’s you and your wife now, and it’s amazing. So even when you hear these verses, like in Ephesians chapter two, another awesome passage that talks about being in Christ, where it says that we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies.

Is this some super mystical, you really got to meditate and get to this place where you’re lifted up? It’s really understood that here’s my ring, and wherever I am, I’m with Brittany. She’s at home right now in a different city, your wife’s somewhere, but we are with them because we’re united together as one body. So that’s the same thing with us in Christ. It’s amazing.

Andrew Marcus:

So you gave us some passages that point to this reality for us. What are the implications of how we live this out?

Isaac Dagneau:

I think that it really comes down to allegiance and loyalty. Again, when I got married, my loyalty and my allegiance was to one. In fact, when I got married, there was a big no to thousands and thousands of women.

Andrew Marcus:

And you’re still getting emails, I think.

Isaac Dagneau:

I’m still getting emails.

Andrew Marcus:

So many women.

Isaac Dagneau:

But think about that, though. Stop! No, no, no!

Andrew Marcus:

You said it!

Isaac Dagneau:

I’m not saying it that they wanted it, I’m just saying from on my part.

Andrew Marcus:

Okay. That makes way more… So, if you’re one of them, you can email us and we’ll counsel you and help you.

Isaac Dagneau:

No, no, no. But the point is, if you think about it, though…

Andrew Marcus:

You said no to everyone else when you said yes.

Isaac Dagneau:

I had to, because it’s an allegiance, and it is a loyalty, because you are joined. You are joined.

Andrew Marcus:

I totally get what you were saying, but I didn’t understand what you were saying when you first said it. I’m like, “That’s a bold thing to say. This guy is just boldly professing that he’s some hot stuff.”

Isaac Dagneau:

No! Oh, no! No way. No way.

So when you consider in that realm that to be in Christ Jesus is a matter of utmost, highest priority, loyalty, and allegiance, then obviously it’s going to affect every single area of your entire life. Everything is now seen with in the element of “I’m joined with Christ.” It’s not I who live, as Paul says in Galatians 2:20, it is not me anymore. It’s not me. And maybe one of the most practical ways is… Can I go somewhere else in the script?

Andrew Marcus:

Please. Yeah, a hundred percent. I appreciate it.

Isaac Dagneau:

All right, let’s go.

So in Romans 6, this is an amazing, amazing, amazing chapter. In fact, my friend Ted, who really brought me into this, said, “If the church got hold of Romans 6, the church would change for the better.” So that really was like, “Okay, I got to understand Romans 6 because there’s something obviously really powerful here.” But this is what Paul says, because he’s emphasized grace… Think of it this way, all of us have been born in Adam, that’s a very theological understanding, but what basically that means is Adam was the first human being who was the representative head of all people. And rather than taking seriously his kingly, priestly role on earth to lead all of humanity, you could say, into a place of loving God and loving others in dominion over the world, he rebelled against him.

He said, “God, no. Thanks.” He turned his back on God, and because of that, Romans 5:12 says that sin spread. So we understand that. So we heartily, I think, agree and believe in original sin. It’s human depravity because of that reality. But obviously grace has come, God has poured us out in grace because he’s brought the second Adam, which is Jesus, to do what Adam didn’t do, and now we have the opportunity to become joined with the second Adam so that He could be our representative head. So rather than being in Adam, we can be in Christ, we can be incorporated into His body and we can be instruments of His body.

But some of the maybe arguments against that reality is that, “Well, if it’s all grace, if we’re just incorporated into Christ, then that means we can go on sinning.” The word is antinomianism. You guys have talked about it before. And Paul attacks us in Romans 6. He says, “Well, if you are saying, ‘Why can’t we just sin that grace may abound?'” And then Paul says something really fascinating. He says, do you not know, or “How can we, who died to sin still live in it?” He says, “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized…” The word there in the Greek is “baptiso” which means immersed, totally submerged. “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried, therefore, with Him by baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead, by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life?”

He goes on to explain this, that our body of sin that was absolutely enslaved under Adam, to do that which was unlawful, to do that which is everything in this world that brings about suffering, and violence, and abuse and all of this, that body of sin has been crucified, because when we are united under Christ, we gain all of His life, including His death, and including His resurrection. And we didn’t really have to do anything about it, this is the grace of it. We just get incorporated into His life, but that means we’ve died with Him, and that means we have a new life now.

And then this is where it comes, when you ask the question about how does this actually effect our day-to-day walk, our lifestyle, it comes to Romans 6:11, which says, “You must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” Because Jesus died under the dominion of sin and dominion of death, He died to sin bearing, not His sin, but our sins. He rose again, because we’re united with Him, that means that all of us who call ourselves Christians, we must reckon. This is where the mind comes in, Christianity is very mind focused. It’s not just heart. Remember, this is very important.

We have to reckon ourselves, understand mentally, this is where the renewal of our mind comes in, Romans chapter 12, other places. It’s renewing of our mind, reckon ourselves dead to sin. It doesn’t have any say over us anymore. Death has no… We’re not under that realm, under that dominion. We’re not in the house of Adam, which is like the house built on sand. We’re no longer there. Now we can consider ourselves alive to God, which is a phrase that means “alive unto God” which means we can actually live, even now, with a vision towards God, which we couldn’t when we were in Adam, at all. There’s nothing. But now we can live to God. But notice the last phrase- “in Christ.” Because it can only happen in Christ.

And this is huge because there’s lots of different religions and worldviews that give lip service to God, and they believe they’re following God, or the Creator, or the Great Spirit. But here we have clear evidence that if it’s not in Christ Jesus, then you’re still living for and unto sin, and it’s only in Christ that you can actually live dead to sin, not enslaved to it, and live unto God. It’s huge.

Andrew Marcus:

Earth-shattering.

Isaac Dagneau:

It is!

Andrew Marcus:

And there’s a lot of Christians who maybe don’t understand this reality for themselves.

Isaac Dagneau:

And that’s the thing, it’s understanding it. And this is where, three years ago and up to this day, it’s a matter of realizing, “Oh my goodness, I am not in Adam…” And, not that I thought that way, but I’m not just me, and Jesus is helping me be a better person. That is not gospel.

Andrew Marcus:

That’s the most common reality.

Isaac Dagneau:

It’s horrible.

Andrew Marcus:

What Christians… Would you say that? Probably the most common. Like, “Okay, I’m in my life. I got my stuff, and now I got this helper. Jesus is coming to help me and we’re going to do this thing with His help.”

Isaac Dagneau:

Yes, totally. And it’s totally different. The Apostolic Witness, which is that fancy word for what the apostles preached and taught to the early church after Jesus ascended into heaven, this witness of Christ, was so extreme, because what they were preaching was, “You die. You’re dead. You’ve got to die, because your allegiance now is not to this world. It is not under the realm of dominion and sin anymore. It is now totally in Christ Jesus.” And when you look throughout Acts, you can see the power of the church recognizing who they are in Christ.

For example, in Ephesus, there was great pagan worship to Artemis. And when the Christians at the time, they realized what it means to be baptized into the name of Jesus, they’re being in Christ. Now they realize, “Oh, I can’t do my witchcraft anymore. I can’t do my worship to the pagan deities anymore.” So they burned it all. We got to have that again. I would love to have burnings, again, of things. Because we need to.

Andrew Marcus:

We should have burnings.

Isaac Dagneau:

We should do that. No, seriously!

Andrew Marcus:

We’ll be right back after these… I’m just kidding.

Isaac Dagneau:

All the smoke in here.

Andrew Marcus:

Yeah, it comes back. “So I got rid of my bumper sticker.”

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, exactly. But this was worth thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in our understanding.

Andrew Marcus:

I thought it was millions.

Isaac Dagneau:

It could be millions.

Andrew Marcus:

I’m pretty sure it’s millions.

Isaac Dagneau:

Well, I said thousands and thousands because I didn’t quite remember.

Andrew Marcus:

But the thousands of thousands equals if you just do that enough times it’d be millions. If you do the math. But it was very expensive. It was a lot.

Isaac Dagneau:

So that shows this is a massive… Now you can understand this. I don’t want to say this in the sense that if someone has a good dream or good aspiration, like getting married maybe or getting this certain job or whatever. But if you understand this pile as being our desires in Adam, there has to be a figurative, sometimes literal, burning of these things, and then you live your life in Christ Jesus. It doesn’t mean that all of those are not going to be there anymore, unless they’re wicked, and wrong, and evil, but there’s a reorientation of your life completely because you are in Christ Jesus and have massive effects in the church.

Andrew Marcus:

Do you have any practical things that you do to remind yourself throughout the day? Because I feel like the world is good at just distracting us, or you start to think, “Oh, I want to get this or get that, or do this, or do that.” And we get distracted with the things that just take our focus off Christ. Do you have anything that you… Obviously being in the word reminding yourself, through scripture, the realities for your life.

Isaac Dagneau:

I think basically it really does come to the mind, and people don’t think a lot of the time when we think practical, we’re like, “Okay, I’m going to set a reminder on my phone or blah, blah, blah.” but when you think of it… For example, you think of things like sports, politics, people without even realizing it, they don’t need to set a reminder on their phone to think about sports. When you ask about practical things, it’s a matter of through the word, like you said, just beginning to think this way.

And we know, I think, in here that psychologically that we can actually rework and retrain our brains and neural pathways. And when I think about this, and I haven’t really got there yet, but in Christ is a significant change in thinking. If you’re thinking more of your relationship with God is He’s over here, and I’m here, and He just helps me. He’s helping with me every now then. So it’s a significant change, which means there has to be an intense time of reorientation.

So we think about Paul…

Andrew Marcus:

Oh, this is really good.

Isaac Dagneau:

He grew up in the faith. He grew up in the church, you could say he was trained under Gamaliel, one of the greatest pharisaical leaders in Jerusalem. When he was so zealous, he knew the law backwards and forwards, he aced his Sunday school. When he was going to Damascus, he had this amazing experience where Jesus comes the whole Damascus word experience. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, read Acts 9, it’s amazing. And then he goes off into, we learn about the… In Galatians, he goes off into, I think, the Arabian Desert. Is that right? The Arabian Desert for a little while. And he might’ve been there for a couple of years.

Andrew Marcus:

I think that’s right.

Isaac Dagneau:

And I believe that in this time, he was able to experience this reorienting of his neural pathways, you could say, so that when he comes back on the scene… When you read the life of Paul, it’s like he’s just in Christ all the time. He sees everything through the lens of Christ. So if this is the first time you’re hearing about these things, it might be a good idea… And I know some of you are college students, you have very busy lifestyles, but take even a three hour, four hour chunk of time.

Do this, you do it with outings with your friends. Just take on a Saturday or whatever, but take some time seriously and have your little Arabian desert time where you are just literally reading scripture, praying, fast maybe, and just be like, “God, I know I’m not going to get all in this moment…” Maybe it only is half an hour for you. It doesn’t really matter, but you need to begin. The Grand Canyon started with a trickle, I think. I don’t know, but it started somewhere.

Andrew Marcus:

Fact check that.

Isaac Dagneau:

You fact check it.

But after time, it becomes what it is. So just begin to reorient, renew your mind with these truths, and it will soon become second nature.

Andrew Marcus:

Isaac, thank you for being on the show today.

Isaac Dagneau:

Absolutely. God bless you.

Andrew Marcus:

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. For more great content, check out THE INDOUBT SHOW on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you stream your podcast. We hope you enjoyed it today. Feel free to check out Indoubt.ca. We have some great resources available to you. Have an awesome day.

Hey, INDOUBT listeners, we have some cool opportunities for you to get something free for the month of November. Two Christmas resources, the first one is Quiet Spaces for Christmas, a 30-day devotional to take you through the advent weeks. Or you can get Jake and The Christmas surprise. Our dear friend, Phil Callaway at Laugh Again. A delightful story of mischief and mercy for all the young ones. I’ve actually been reading it with my son and we’ve been loving it. You can go to Indoubt.ca and get one of these for free for the month of November. We encourage you to do that, and we hope you enjoy it. God bless.