Ep. 139: Christianity is Exclusive?

Isaac Dagneau:

Hey, it’s Isaac here. Hope you’re all doing well. We are shaped by culture, no matter who you are. Now, you believe certain things based on what culture has told you. The filter by which we judge something to be believable or not is primarily built and structured by the greater culture. We are automatically influenced in the way we believe and what we believe.

Isaac Dagneau:

I hope whether you are a Christian or not, you’d agree with that statement. I think it’s silly to imagine someone thinking that their filter is pure and untouched by culture. But anyways, consider this with me. Christianity is tolerated when it promotes and encourages actions and behaviors that our postmodern world embraces.

Isaac Dagneau:

For example, okay, Matthew 22:39. We get this command as Christians from God to love our neighbors. That command is happily accepted in the greater culture. No atheist or humanist or anyone that’s kind of against religion or against Christianity… they’re not going to laugh, or mock, or argue with that command. Why? Because they believe that too. They embrace loving others.

Isaac Dagneau:

But on the other hand, Christianity can be condemned and looked upon as arrogant, and it’s kind of stifling when it teaches truths that grind against that of the world. In this respect, take our topic for this week, the exclusivity of Christianity. This truth, that a majority of Christians believe, has our culture, a lot of the times, looking at the church with perhaps feelings of disgust, or annoyance, or anger, or even embarrassment… like when you’re embarrassed for someone.

Isaac Dagneau:

Now, because of the nature of who we are, it’s easier if you’re a Christian to be vocal about the Christian truths that our culture embraces. For example, no persecution really does follow when a Christian loves their neighbor in light of their beliefs in the supernatural gospel. Their actions are approved by culture despite their spiritual motives.

Isaac Dagneau:

But on the other hand, it can be difficult to voice the especially counter-cultural truths of Christianity. Why? I think there’s lots of reasons. But I would say because of our innate fear of being disliked and unaccepted by others… but even worse than that, maybe we don’t actually believe them.

Isaac Dagneau:

Now our guest, Derek, will talk more about the exclusivity of Christianity. I want us… whether you’re a Christian, an unbeliever, or just a skeptic… to seriously think critically as we discuss this important subject about the exclusivity of Christianity. So here’s our conversation.

Isaac Dagneau:

With me today is Derek Rishmawy. Derek is a systematic theology PhD student at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He’s written for various blogs and writes at his own blog called Reformedish. He also co-hosts a podcast called Mere Fidelity. It’s great to have you on the show today, Derek.

Derek Rishmawy:

Thanks for having me on. Great to be here.

Isaac Dagneau:

Firstly, what’s your your brief one to two minute testimony? How did Jesus save you?

Derek Rishmawy:

Yeah, that’s a good question. In a sense he saved me… like you say to everybody else… 2000 years ago on a cross. That’s kind of a canned answer, but it’s true and it’s very important. I think for most people to get in their head that important thing about their testimony is not necessarily all the details of my personal narrative with Jesus, but just with Jesus and his narrative for us.

Derek Rishmawy:

But beyond that, I was a church kid so I don’t remember a time not being a Christian. My parents raised me in a Christian home. I think they got saved a few months before I was born. I always went to church, always consciously believed in Jesus. Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me. I’ve gone through different stages of learning that this is real.

Derek Rishmawy:

I can think of maybe 15 times I’ve prayed the sinner’s prayer when I was a little kid in some Bible study or at church, but I don’t know which one of them it was or if God had done a work before that, before any of them. I’ve just always been raised in church and it’s been a matter of just clarifying commitment and understanding new layers to God’s love, God’s grace towards me.

Derek Rishmawy:

The fact that I really need it, just along with everybody else… the guy with the crazy testimony who came to faith at 40 after a life of sex, drugs and rock and roll. Well, that’s that’s me too, in a sense, without ever having lived the wildness.

Derek Rishmawy:

So, yeah. I mean, but raised in church, grew up always in Bible studies, ended up going to college, getting the call to ministry in college, and then going on and continuing studying, getting my master’s, doing a few years of ministry with college and young adult students, and then where I am today, which is doing graduate school work at Trinity Evangelical. I’m working on my PhD in theology right now, and just walking with Jesus.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s so good. Well, thank you for sharing that. We’re going to hit the issue of exclusivism, which I’m going to talk with you about in just a second. But first, you recently contributed a chapter to this book called Our Secular Age, which that was from the Gospel Coalition. You did the chapter on the subject of millennials. And if you go online, you’ve actually done other stuff on millennials as well. So you sort of have, well, seemingly, a passion for them.

Isaac Dagneau:

To prepare us though for our conversation a little bit, I’m wondering if you could just give us a few points that you sort of outlined in your chapter that you think would be beneficial in considering this generation and their beliefs today?

Derek Rishmawy:

Yeah, so one of the main concepts I hit with that chapter was the fact that part of what it means to live in a secular age is not so much that everybody is a skeptic or that everybody is a nonbeliever. It’s just more that belief is not the default. Belief in God, Christianity, it’s not the default anymore. It’s one option among many. And that is true for everybody. That’s just part of the conditions of belief for everybody, 17 year olds to 70 year olds.

Derek Rishmawy:

But with millennials, all of the historical conditions that have gotten us to this place, they have just hit us longer and further down that historical line of experiencing the fact that there are a lot of other intellectual options out there, a lot of other ways of believing and organizing the way you look at the world. And so believers and non-believers are in this space where they understand that there’s different ways to live and understand the world.

Derek Rishmawy:

With millennials, one of the things that is distinct is just how long we have been online, the internet and technology and things like that. It further fragments the way that we process information, the avenues which we can access it. So we, at any moment, if somebody’s making a claim, we can Google and check up on that, and come up with 15 different positions on that same verse that the pastor might be preaching on in a sermon.

Derek Rishmawy:

So that just changes the approach a lot of the way that we process things, and the way that we understand our beliefs as our beliefs. I think it puts a greater pressure, in some ways, to preach apologetically, be aware of objections and skeptical instincts in our hearers in our generation, even among believers. It’s not just a matter of skeptics and non-Christians having questions. No, a lot of the Christians have many of the same questions.

Derek Rishmawy:

Apologetics can’t just be a hobby anymore. It’s actually part of pastoral ministry, is one thing that I would say. Not just rational apologetics in terms of, “All right, here’s five arguments for the existence of God.” But practical apologetics of works of mercy or answering moral objections, that sort of thing. So a few of the nutshell points.

Isaac Dagneau:

No, I think that’s good and just even considering that as we go through this next little bit of this conversation, I think is helpful instead of just attacking it from any generation. I think it’s specific to think about it through the millennials’ eyes.

Isaac Dagneau:

Now kind of shifting to this idea of exclusivism, what do we mean? Because I think some people don’t really understand completely what exactly that means when we say, “Christianity is exclusive.” I thought it’d be kind of interesting just to hear from you how you’d explain this truth or this idea to someone really young, like a five year old.

Isaac Dagneau:

But also how you would explain to someone who’s older and has done PhD work. Maybe a peer of yourself. So, yeah, and what are some Scripture references that you would even point people to about this idea? So yeah, what does it mean that Christianity is exclusive?

Derek Rishmawy:

Yeah, that is tougher. Actually, the sad thing about graduate work is that sometimes it makes explaining things harder than it was before you did it. When it comes to thinking about what exclusivity means for Christianity, there’s a few different things it can mean.

Isaac Dagneau:

Okay.

Derek Rishmawy:

One is just to say that Christianity is… as a whole religion… is exclusive of other whole religions in the sense that if we’re claiming which view has the best comprehensive view of reality, the truth… especially the truth about God and salvation… Christianity is the truth and every other religion is a blend of truth and falsity.

Derek Rishmawy:

In so far as they contradict Christianity, they’re false. But in so far as they agree, they have truth. You can also look at it from the angle of salvation. This is clearly not the five year old explanation I’m giving you.

Isaac Dagneau:

Right, right.

Derek Rishmawy:

The question is how are we saved? How are we saved? For a lot of classic historic Christianity, the verse in Acts 4:12 handles it. “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven, given among men, by which we must be saved,” and that’s the name of Jesus. So the claim that Christianity is exclusive is actually just a claim that salvation is exclusively found in Christ.

Derek Rishmawy:

You can say that in two ways. Salvation is found in Christ in the sense that it is only Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection, which forms the foundation, or is the… I don’t want to say mechanism… but yeah, the only way that we can come to a right relationship with God. That had to take place. That is the only basis upon which anybody comes into right relationship with God. It’s exclusive of any other religion’s claims for how we come into contact with God.

Derek Rishmawy:

So whether it’s the [inaudible 00:11:05] path, or the five pillars of Islam, or any other system that says, “Okay, well be a good person and you’ll encounter God. Or if you reincarnate the right amount of times, living the requisite holy life in each one, then you’ll come into contact with the divine.” No. Only Christ’s life, death, and resurrection are the foundation for our salvation and union with God. So that’s one element.

Derek Rishmawy:

And that’s something that most Christianity has always affirmed. This other half to it is still mostly traditional and has been affirmed throughout Christian history… but is more controversial… is the question of whether or not you have to know that, whether or not you have to actually become a Christian and have explicit faith in Jesus to be saved. So there’s the question of who saves.

Derek Rishmawy:

Exclusivism says, “Jesus.” But then the question is do you have to believe in Jesus to be saved? And there, some Christians have disagreed over time. Some Christians… who their position is called inclusivism… will say, “Well, yes, it’s Jesus who saves, but it’s not necessarily the case that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved by him.”

Derek Rishmawy:

They’ll point to the quintessential guy on an island who has never heard of the gospel-

Isaac Dagneau:

Right, right, right. Right.

Derek Rishmawy:

-or people in other times and places that just were out of reach of the gospel. So that raises another question. Exclusivism has to do with the claim that Jesus is the only way to salvation. It’s got those, at least, two layers to the question is he the only savior, and do we have to know him as such for him to save us.

Derek Rishmawy:

When it comes to verses, it’s really a matter of… there’s a lot of different ones. Ones that have been important for thinking about this… just on the claim that Jesus is the only savior… Romans 5, “By one man’s obedience, many will be made righteous.” Or 1 Timothy 2:5, “There’s only one mediator between God and men. The man, Jesus Christ.” Or again, Acts 4:12, “There’s salvation in no one else.”

Derek Rishmawy:

Or Jesus himself. Jesus has some of the most exclusive statements in the whole Bible. He says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. And no one comes to father but by me.” It’s not even just this one little statement around it. He makes all sorts of other statements. In the Gospel of John, specifically, says, “Those who come to him will never thirst. Those who come to him will have water flowing out of him. They won’t remain darkness.”

Derek Rishmawy:

And even more, John 3:18, “Those who don’t believe in him will be condemned. Those who don’t honor him don’t honor the father. If they don’t know him, if they don’t know the son, if they don’t honor the son, they don’t honor the father.” That’s John 5:23. So the claim that somebody can know God and love God in a saving way without knowing and loving Jesus… or explicitly rejecting… Jesus seems to rule that out.

Derek Rishmawy:

Paul’s got the very famous section in Romans 10:9-15, “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with your heart, you believe and are justified. And it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.” And as scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame. For there’s no difference between Jew and Gentile. The same Lord is Lord of all, and richly blesses all who call on him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Derek Rishmawy:

Here’s this crucial section. Verse 14 says, “How then can they call on the one whom they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they’re sent. As it is written, ‘how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news?'”

Derek Rishmawy:

So the logic that Paul is using there… it fits most with this more classic, exclusivist position of how are people going to call on Jesus’ name if they’ve never heard it? It’s confessing him with your heart and your mouth that is the saving confession. And so there’s just a lot of scriptural material that points us in that direction.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, no, that’s awesome. And it’s interesting… this is sort of a little added in question here I just thought of when you’re talking about the idea that exclusivism refers to that there’s no other salvation in anyone except Jesus… but I’m just wondering… if you can answer this in a short period of time because we’re almost already getting to our end of our conversation… but do people today think they need to be saved?

Isaac Dagneau:

Because I feel like would this even matter? Telling a millennial that Jesus is the only way to salvation, do they feel like, “Oh yeah, I guess I need to believe in Jesus.”

Derek Rishmawy:

Yeah, and that’s one of the bigger issues is that often times, this question won’t even arise except by way of challenge. Often times, you have to step back a few. The exclusivity is not just a matter of salvation. It is a matter of just, “Okay, well, who gives you the fullest angle on the truth of human meaning of not just salvation in the future life, but in this life?” Who had the deepest answers to your social alienation that you feel? The fact that you know there’s something wrong with the world. Everybody knows it. Which view of reality can account for the most of your experience, and can actually speak to your deepest hurts and pains.

Derek Rishmawy:

At that point, claiming Christianity is exclusive doesn’t necessarily mean that no other religion says true things, or that there isn’t overlaps. C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity had this great line where he said, “Basically, Christians get to be very broadminded. We actually get to say that a lot of religions get a lot right. Only the atheist has to look at everybody throughout history and say… most people, 95% of human history… and say, ‘You’ve all been completely wrong about everything when it comes to morality, and the meaning of life, and spirituality, and the divine.’ Christians get to say, ‘Actually, you’ve all gotten a lot right. But there’s more. There’s a lot more, and we find it in Jesus.'”

Derek Rishmawy:

With that said, yeah, when it comes to millennials and speaking to them, often times it’s a matter of, “Okay, well, what do you care about? Let’s see if the gospel has something to say to that, if there’s something uniquely true that the gospel speaks to that.” Often, most times, there is.

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah. No, that’s good. Derek, a lot of critical thinkers that perhaps aren’t Christian, they’re just critical thinkers about religion and philosophy, things like that… but also a lot of Christians… there seems to be an issue with this truth a lot of the time. It’s sort of a stumbling block that they’re faced with. I’m wondering if you could speak into that a little bit? I have ideas of why it’s uncomfortable for some people. But yeah, why is this truth sometimes hard for people to swallow, even people that are Christians?

Derek Rishmawy:

Well, yeah, there’s a lot of reasons. One of which is just there’s the worry that a belief like this leads to violence, religious exclusivism. If my religion is the one that has the truth and your religion is the one that is full of lies, I am righteous, you’re unrighteous. That can lead to religious exclusive, and hostility, and violence. That has happened. And that is one concern.

Derek Rishmawy:

Another concern might just be the issue of humility. There’s a very famous philosopher of religion, John Hick. His main argument against exclusivism or any kind of absolute truth claim when it comes to religion, is just that it’s all truth is culturally conditioned and it’s very arrogant for anybody to claim that they have the right view. How could anybody claim that? There’s something initially very appealing about that.

Derek Rishmawy:

It sounds very humble at first. And I’ve been wrong about a lot before. I still am on certain things, I’m sure. But the problem comes, say with that one, there’s an over-reach move that happens when people go from saying, “Well, there’s a lot of positions out there. How are you sure you’re right,” to, “Well, nobody can claim to be right. How would you know? How would you know no one view is absolutely correct, or ultimately true, or the closest to the truth?”

Derek Rishmawy:

You yourself would have to kind of occupy a position outside of time and place. You yourself would have to not be a 21st century North American and be able to look at all the positions and look at all of reality, to be able to say, “Well, nobody actually has the truth down. You’d have to have full access to the truth to be able to do that sort of thing.

Derek Rishmawy:

Put it this way, Herman Bavinck, he’s a Dutch reformed thinker, he talks a little bit about this issue in his systematic theology. He points out that making a claim like that, you have to make a very big assumption. Which is that if there is a God, he’s not very particular about how he’s worshiped, or how people think about him. That you yourself would have to know quite a bit about God himself and what does or does not matter to him.

Derek Rishmawy:

You yourself would have to rule out the possibility that God had gone out his way to communicate truth about himself. How would you know that God hasn’t gone to the great lengths that… way the Christian gospel has said he has gone… to communicate truth about himself to the world. And not just communicate truth, but be truth to them, be salvation to them. You have to make a big claim in order to argue that big claims…. like those of Christian exclusivism… are not true.

Derek Rishmawy:

Things like that. There’s a lot more. I know I’m just scratching the surface, and I’m sure there’s someone who is thinking, “Okay. But wait, I get it. You’re right. There are more things to say here.”

Isaac Dagneau:

Well, let’s jump to this last one really quick. But if true salvation… we do believe that true salvation… and just what we said, that just Christianity and it’s truth claims are exclusive… os there anything that we, as Christians can be inclusive on?

Derek Rishmawy:

Yes, actually the gospel itself is the most inclusive message there is. It includes a call and an offer of salvation to anyone. Anyone who will believe, anyone who will trust in Jesus Christ regardless of their race, regardless of their socio-economic status, regardless of their past history, outwardly righteous, inwardly terrible, outwardly terrible, inwardly kind of okay, anybody. The gospel is anybody who believes in Jesus Christ, that his life, his death, his resurrection is for them, and can be for them.

Derek Rishmawy:

Anyone can know God through Jesus, anyone who believes. This is in many ways, in the ultimate way, is the most inclusive message. God’s arms extend out to the world. That’s that classic verse that you see held up at baseball games… or maybe hockey games as Canadians…

Isaac Dagneau:

Yeah, thank you.

Derek Rishmawy:

John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.” The gospel itself is the most inclusive message, which is actually why Christian theologians and pastors have made the exclusive claims for it that they have. Because every other message somehow leaves out a category. Every other message somehow leaves out the bad people, leaves out the poor people, leaves out the dumb people.

Derek Rishmawy:

Certain gnostic philosophies where if you’re wise enough, if you’re smart enough to peer into the insights of the universe, and if you have enough time to meditate. Which means you’re probably not working a job, which means you probably have enough money to have…

Derek Rishmawy:

No, no. The gospel says, “No. The message is for you. For you wherever you are.” And so that’s why we have made exclusive claims for Christ to be as absolutely inclusive as possible of everyone.

Isaac Dagneau:

That’s so good. Well, thank you so much, Derek. If you’re listening right now and you’re interested more from Derek… and he blogs on a wide variety of topics… definitely check out his blog Reformedish, which is derekzrishmawy.com. I’ll provide the link to that on our episode podcast page. Also check out Mere Fidelity, which is a podcast that he helps run. You can find that at mereorthodoxy.com.

Isaac Dagneau:

Again, I’ll put the link on our episode page. But anyways, thanks again, Derek. I hope to have you back on the show again,

Derek Rishmawy:

Isaac, it was very nice to be on the show. Thanks.

Isaac Dagneau:

That was Derek Rishmawy. Again, all the links to the sites I just mentioned will be on our episode podcast page. For those of you listening who are committed to Jesus, I just want to encourage and challenge you with some words. For those listening who aren’t Christians or are kind of pretty skeptical, listen to what I’m saying and hopefully hear my heart.

Isaac Dagneau:

I remember hearing this analogy in Bible college and it stuck with me. I’ve also added just a few details. But nevertheless, here’s this analogy. Say you’re driving on the back roads in some forest with lots of winding roads, sharp corners, and pretty difficult visibility. Say it’s stormy. Really, really, really stormy. Rain is just pounding down, your wipers are on full blast.

Isaac Dagneau:

Well, just before you go around a sharp corner, say you get a text. And because you don’t text and drive, you pull over, and you answer it, and you discuss whatever you’re going to discuss with whoever’s texting you. Now, as you pull back onto the road slowly and turn the corner, you hit the brakes because the bridge immediately after the sharp corner is completely washed out.

Isaac Dagneau:

You think to yourself, “Whoa, if I hadn’t been going the slow speed I was, I’d have driven right inside of that mess and probably not survived.” Now, the first thing that comes to your mind is, “Okay, not everyone coming around this corner is going to be going as slow as I was. They won’t have the chance to stop.”

Isaac Dagneau:

So you decide to turn your car around and slowly drive back from where you came. Whenever a car was coming the other way, you’d flash your high beams and motion them to stop. Then they would stop, then you’d say to them, “Hey, the bridge is washed out around the sharp corner. Watch out.”

Isaac Dagneau:

Now, some people will automatically take your word for it. They’ll turn around and they’ll leave. Some will be skeptical and want to slowly approach the corner and see for themselves. And some won’t believe you and just speed around the corner.

Isaac Dagneau:

Now this analogy can be used for many things, but look at it in terms of the exclusivity of Christianity. You are believing and saying to others an exclusive truth claim. The fact that the bridge is washed out isn’t up for discussion. It’s washed out. It’s an absolute truth. And because it’s absolute, you have no problem in telling others about it.

Isaac Dagneau:

In fact, it would be wrong and selfish for you not to go to great lengths to tell people. You see the fact that Jesus is the only way to save people from the road to destruction should compel us as Christians to take very seriously our commission to make disciples of all nations. Yet we can shrink Christianity as if the bridge isn’t washed out, and we just let people do whatever. We say things like, “Oh, it’s their life. They’re happy.” Or, “They wouldn’t listen anyway.”

Isaac Dagneau:

Now the reality is, the bridge is washed out. The end of this life isn’t just nothingness, or reincarnation, or any of that sort of thing. It’s actually perfect judgment. Now we, as Christians, ought to let the exclusivity of Christianity really compel us to share with as many people as we can, the saving and loving and grace-filled truth of Jesus Christ. I hope that analogy helps just a little bit.

Isaac Dagneau:

Well, that wraps up today’s episode. We hope you’ll join us next week as we host another conversation on life and faith. We’ll see you then.