Ep. 221: Learning to Lead

Kourtney Cromwell:
Welcome to the indoubt Podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture. Connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s Word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Hey everyone, thanks so much for joining us for a new episode of indoubt. This is Kourtney, and I’m really looking forward to today’s episode where we’ve got Matt Hammitt joining us. He’s the former lead singer of Sanctus Real, and author of the recently released book, Lead Me: Finding Courage to Fight for Your Marriage, Children, and Faith.
We’re leaning into what it looks like to lead in a family, but also what leadership in any context looks like when your foundation is built on solid ground, on Jesus Christ. You’ll hear Matt and Isaac talk through what it meant for Matt to leave his music career, to focus more on his family and marriage; how Matt and his wife grew in facing conflict and grief; the failures and the times of triumph in their marriage; and what it means to find comfort in the midst of a struggle. I hope that you find encouragement in this episode with Isaac and Matt Hammitt.

Isaac Dagneau:
Well, welcome to indoubt. My name is Isaac, I’m one of the hosts. With me today is author, speaker, songwriter, and former lead singer of the band Sanctus Real, Matt Hammitt. It’s a great pleasure to have you on the show today Matt.

Matt Hammitt:
Hey, thanks it’s so good to be here. I’m really grateful.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s great. We’re not here unfortunately to talk about maybe specifically your career as the lead singer of Sanctus Real. But for myself growing up, Say It Loud, was a huge part of my growing up life, so thank you.

Matt Hammitt:
Man, I love hearing that, every once in a while. Every couple of years I’ll actually go back, and revisit some of that old stuff. My wife will sometimes pull up some old pictures, and it’s fun man to look back at those days. It was a real blast getting to play music during that time. It’s interesting things have changed a little. There’s not much space in the Christian music market for just organic rock bands. That was I think a time in history that maybe has passed us, where there was a big market for that, but I enjoyed it so much.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. Well thank you and your band and everyone else that helped do that. That was a lot of fun. Matt, could you just take some time and share with us a bit about who you are, how you came to know Jesus? That’d be great just to share with us about that.

Matt Hammitt:
Sure. I grew up in a house where my parents both served in the church as volunteers. My mother just volunteered wherever she could. My dad actually taught Sunday school my whole life. They also worked outside the home. My mom actually worked at a Christian school; my dad was an engineer. It was one of those things where my parents were very heavily involved in church and having us in Christian school. They didn’t just talk about it or put us in those institutions per se. Not that church is an institution, pardon me I don’t mean to sound that way because I love the church. It was very real to us. They really lived, they were part of the living and breathing body of Christ, where they really lived what we believed and what they taught us.
I consider that literally one of the greatest gifts I’ve had in my life, is to have parents who’ve modeled real faith for me, and what that looks like to actually live it out. Not to say that I still didn’t fall into the trap of the human heart, which is, the Bible says, “The heart is deceptive above all things,” only God knows it. Of course, my heart over the years, I think one of the biggest deceptions for me was a very shame-based mentality around religion. Even though my parents didn’t really teach me this, I gravitated to the feeling that, well God really only loves me when I’m performing at my best. I learned to do that.
But when I really, really came to know, I guess came to really feel my relationship with Christ was truly established in a more personal way, was finally when I made it to my early 20s, and I read a book by Brennan Manning called, The Signature of Jesus. There was something about the way that Brennan, as a broken, very broken man, understood God’s love for him; understood that regardless of his performance, he was fully loved. Something about his story just really broke through to me, to where I really realized that Christ loved me as I was, not because of what I’ve done. But that it’s really His love for me that then fuels me on to do even more to serve Him. Because then I’m not doing it out of obligation but out of true just gratefulness. I guess my personal faith in that time was really revolutionized.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. It’s almost like when you read that book and the Spirit started doing the work, it’s like you met grace. Because before that it was a lot of law and then you met grace. That’s so good. I’m sure we’ll get into more of your life from your early 20s up till today in the rest of our conversation as well. You’ve written a book that’s just come out called, Lead Me, with the subtitle, Finding Courage to Fight for Your Marriage, Children, and Faith. Let’s just start this way: what is the problem or the issue that you felt called to address in this book? What was it? Speak to that. I know it’s a plethora of a personal story as well. Speak to the problem, the issue that you wanted to address in this book.

Matt Hammitt:
Sure. My personal experience was the growing tension between being a husband and a father and being someone who was working to advance my career. It’s not a tension that is just individual to me, obviously every man feels this. What really made me I guess more enlightened to the fact that this is something that everybody was feeling like I was feeling it, was when I wrote the song, Lead Me for Sanctus Real. I poured some of what my wife was crying out to me for, which was just that knowledge that, “I’m before this career dream that you’re chasing.” She just wanted to know that, “Your calling as a husband and father is more important than that.” I think that’s right. That God does call us to serve those we love in our world that He’s given us to steward with diligence and faithfulness.
I will say there was really not a plan in action for me as a father, and a husband to figure out, well, I’ve got plans for everything else in my life and how I’m going to advance my career, but I didn’t have a plan for the most important things. That was always at odds in my life. I always struggled to just be the man as the song says, that’s straight from my heart, my wife’s heart, be the man that God has called me to be. When that song came out, it was like I was still working through this in my own life, but I had all these guys and women and even children coming to me and saying, “This is my favourite song, and it’s the cry of our hearts.” I began to realize that certainly as I suspected, it wasn’t just me dealing with this tension between career dreams and family dreams.
But this is something that everybody really is feeling. As I made a really difficult decision to walk away from a 20-year career with Sanctus Real, to focus more on my family and my marriage. As I walked through that, and now being removed about five years from that, and almost 10 years from the song, I really wanted to put into words the most difficult seasons of my life in marriage, so that people could know they’re not alone. Then I wanted to share the story of how God has been working in me to help me be that man that I desired. This book really is addressing that specific need, that felt need that people right now that’s everywhere in families, is, hey, how do we address this desire we have? How do we turn our intentions to be the fathers and husbands we always wanted to be into action? This book addresses that problem.

Isaac Dagneau:
Absolutely. That’s so good. Just to clarify at the beginning too that, and I’m sure that you’ve said this a lot and you’ve already had feedback. This book yes may be primarily for men, but women will gain a lot from it as well.

Matt Hammitt:
It’s a book for everyone.

Isaac Dagneau:
As they can resonate with your wife, and so on.

Matt Hammitt:
Yeah. It’s a book for everyone. My wife’s voice is actually in it, which I love. We originally went to the publisher and said, “Hey, we’d love to write this as his side and her side, and the truth in between.” But they were like, “Hey, we only work with one author, but we’d love to have your wife’s voice.” We actually brought her voice in, where she just pops in to say, “Hey, this is how I saw it.” From the female heart. I love that touch.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. Matt, what are some specific stories and the issues that you, your wife, your family, had to face and had to deal with in your own growth as a spiritual leader in your family over these years? You talk about you and your wife as newlyweds, right away jumping on bus, going on tour. Then there’s a situation with your third child. What are some of these things that you had to work with and through as you considered your growth as a spiritual leader in your home?

Matt Hammitt:
Number one for Sarah and I, our biggest issue that we’ve always faced in our marriage, is just conflict management. We seek regular counseling even when we’re healthy. What my counselor always says, he says, for us specifically, it’s like we have episodic conflict that can feel really charged. Part of that is because when we were on the road together for the first four years of our marriage, we had no space for us to be intimate and communicate, in ways that were healthy for us as a couple. Because we were in a van and trailer with a bunch of guys just touring around. We would get home and it’d be like everything had been bottling up for months would all come out at one place. It created this cycle of episodic conflict that could just be charged.
Really for me as a leader, one of my calls was to learn like, okay, how do I change the cycles and the approach to conflict in my marriage? How do I take steps to try to neutralize things when we feel that tension rise, so we can have healthy dialogue and not unhealthy conflict? That was one thing in our marriage, and I know that every couple deals with conflict. But we share very candidly about our failures in conflict, and also share how we overcame some of that in the book. Then another thing for us that was very difficult was, the grief that we felt walking through life with a child with chronic illness. When Bowen our third child was born with heart disease, we spent months in the hospital, and now we still do, after three open heart surgeries. We walk with all kinds of other families who walk through these pains and these trials.
For us it was honestly like just… Well I’ve heard stats that it’s in the 80 percentile of couples who have chronically ill children suffer divorce. The odds are stacked against us in a way. But I believe obviously God is greater than the odds. For us, we talk a lot about that too, about our grief. How we grieved separately through our trials with this, and how grief can either really pull you apart or pull you together, but you have to decide and come up with a plan as to how you’re going to do that. Those were two things for us that really were hardships that we had to deal with. It might not be exactly how we’ve had it in our lives, but certainly every couple feels some sense of how do we deal with conflict, and how do we come together in the grief that life brings us?

Isaac Dagneau:
Absolutely. Well, thank you for being so open and sharing about those serious issues. We appreciate that, and I’m glad that you’ve written about it. I’m sure there will be lots of couples and others that will be able to gain and glean a lot from that. Thinking about those two issues with a different perspective though now, because I think you also in your book talk about the tension that men, this is true for women too, but the tension between career and family. Going after what you feel your calling is, and then also your family. How was that rolling around in the back of your mind as a newlywed, but also with this other situation with your child? How was that working when you had this dual thing going on in your mind, in your heart?

Matt Hammitt:
I’m very candid in the book about the fact that I wasn’t in tune with the reality of what it required to be a leader for my wife. I was so in tune since the age of 16 with like, hey, I’m in this band and we want to make music and we have dreams, and it’s a ministry. We were just so focused on that, that I think I was naive early on, to not realize what it would really take to make a wife feel loved. Then what would it really take to be a great father to make my children feel loved? A lot of that, as you know, is literally presence. So much of it is a presence issue. My wife, one of the things she’s said to me in those early years, as God began to work on my heart through her words was, “It’s like you’re here but you’re not here.” I’m sure many men have heard something like that, and many wives have felt something like that. Wanting just more than the financial provision, but wanting to hear, wanting to know they’re heard.
Their heart and their emotions and their spiritual needs are heard and met. Not even just beyond intention or just a quick, yeah, yeah, honey okay. It’s like, hey, what am I doing actively? I do think one thing that’s always been important for my wife is for me to carve out time for us to pray together, to read together. That’s an area over the years that I’ve really struggled to consistently fall into, but I still work to try to create that as a pattern in our lives even when things get crazy, because I know that’s important to her. It’s important to her because it’s important. I can still get so focused on what’s happening in my career world. Even as now, I still try to provide even outside of the band, even though I’m home, it’s easy to get in my office and work on other things. I’ve got to take that time to make sure that I’m planning to give that same amount of attention and presence to my wife and children.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good, and I appreciate that. It’s like the first practical thing and we’ll get to some more practical stuff. But the idea just of presence and how important that is. As I was thinking about this today before our conversation, I was just thinking about Genesis two, and Adam and Eve, obviously they get married, and it says, “The two shall become one flesh.” There’s so much there. I’m sure you’ve looked into that and you’ve studied that, because it’s just a profound reality that they are… Married couple you’re one flesh. I think so often because we’re so steeped in this individualism in the Western civilization, North America. That even in marriage it can so easily just become roommates, and you just help each other out. You compromise, you sacrifice for one another, but it’s not this spiritual and just holistic union, which I just find so fascinating.

Matt Hammitt:
Yeah. The Bible makes it clear that our wives’ needs and others’ needs are meant to come even before our own. When we’re in tune to that’s what Christ does for us, and that’s what we’re called to do for our wives and for others. That takes presence and action. One really practical way we did that today as a family that I can say, 10 years ago, I’ll give you the contrast. 10 years ago, during all of this, I probably would’ve thought, “The kids are fine, Sarah’s fine.” Be loving to everybody, and try to keep a good attitude, and pray together about things. That’s the good intentions, hey we’re just going to get through this, everything’s fine mentality, which I’m not shaming that by any means. But here 10 years later, and I’ve learned enough to know that what I can do to go beyond that and be proactive as well.
We did today as a family, we sat down together, we talked about our fears, and then we talked about who God was. We read from scripture as a family to remind the kids that nothing can separate us from God’s love. That we can cast our cares on Him because He cares for us. That God is working all things for the good. That’s a proactive step that I can take as a father to gather everyone around, let them speak their thoughts, their feelings, their fears. Let them talk without trying to fix it, but then speak truth into their lives very intentionally. It’s those moments that I just think I’m learning over the years to be a proactive leader.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so, so good, so appreciate that. I feel like in a subtle way, there’s been a resurgence in the idea and practice of family devotions, which is just so essential. Some people may scoff at it, but as you’ve just displayed and shared, it is essential. I’m sure your children in 10, 15, 20 years down the road will look back and thank you and your wife for doing that. I think it’s so good, so I appreciate that.

Matt Hammitt:
Yeah, powerful.

Isaac Dagneau:
Matt, you claim that you were a man of good intentions, but that intentions are worthless until they become actions. Firstly, that sounds kind of cool, but what does it mean? Then secondly, what was it that helped you really realize this, and what was it that changed you?

Matt Hammitt:
I think that my wife had a few hard conversations with me about her needs early in our marriage. Probably more on like seven or eight years of being married, is when I think she really started to have this apparent brokenness. It was the day that I wrote the song Lead Me, that actually it was one of those conversations where I really sensed like… Where I heard her saying like, “We’ve had this conversation. You say okay, you hear me but nothing changes.” I think I realized like, man, I felt so stuck because I think in ways, I was just paralyzed by my good intentions again of just thinking like, well, I’m here, I’m listening, I’m nodding my head. I’m taking in what you’re saying. But the next part of that is the doing, right? Figuring out where is this disconnect? What are the ways she feels loved? Then how do I proactively do this for more than like just today?
To keep things moving forward, and then not hope this blows over tomorrow and go back to business as usual. That was big, and I really felt God just working on me in all areas of my life to really be more… Being a dreamer is okay. What good is being a dreamer if you’re not a doer as well? It’s interesting, I had this really simple visual that I use all the time when I go to men’s conferences to help drive this point home. I had this little workout dice. You throw it on the ground, and it’s got different workouts on it, and whatever rolls up you do that workout. It’s kind of a prompt, right? I bought it and it literally stayed in the back seat of my car for two months. I remember every time I would look at it on the floor in the backseat of the car, I would see the 30 sit-ups or whatever on it. In my mind I would actually do that.
In my mind I would be like, okay, I’m doing these sit-ups, I’m feeling… It actually, funny enough, gave me a little endorphin kick, made me feel good about myself. Then so finally I was like, “I got to take it in the house.” I took it in the house, it sat for another two months in our mud room. I would see the pushups, and in my mind, I would keep doing the pushup. In my mind I’ve been working out for four months, but I haven’t done anything. There’s no visible change to the outside world. But I’ve now inside my mind and my heart actually feel better about myself, because I was imagining myself doing the right things. Sometimes we can actually visualize ourselves doing the things we want to do, and inside because we’re thinking about it, it almost is like the live of being in action, even though no one around us can see the result.
I think it really is the same way. I’ve got my Bible sitting on the end table, I’ve got my Christian living section on the shelf, we’ve got scripture on our walls, and all these things that we’re holding onto this faith. It’s there, we have it, we own it, and we feel good about ourselves. But it’s like, what are we doing with that hope and that faith, that is actually changing the way that we live our lives? It’s like I just really felt like I was looking at all these things in my life that I was having the right intentions. How often am I opening my Bible? How often am I thinking about the truth behind that prayer in my wall, and actually praying it? How many times am I opening those books, and actually ingesting the Word of God and what He’s trying to teach me through His people?
I just think these are really little simple things though that really is our springboard for a much bigger picture of how we live our lives. I think the most important thing we can do is have a reality check, and be willing to take a look at those intentions in our hearts and our minds, and the people we want to be, and ask ourselves a really hard question, do I just want to be that person, or is that actually who others perceive me to be? To take it even further, what’s really risky is asking people in your life, especially your wife, and say, “Honey, how do you view me as a leader? Do you view me as being the man that I claim to be?” Then just letting them talk. You want to talk about scary. That’s hard, but that’s the stuff that changes us.

Isaac Dagneau:
Yeah. That’s great, and I agree with that wholeheartedly, and I think that’s going to be so helpful. Because even as you’re talking about this idea of how, thinking about your intentions, where you want to be, we play it in our minds psychologically and then we feel good about ourselves. I totally resonate with that, and I appreciate the fact that you just verbalized it. What is it then that can bring us to actually start doing? What made you roll the dice if you have?

Matt Hammitt:
Yeah, totally. We all know all the practical stuff in the world has no growth or no meaning without the Lord, without His Spirit in our lives. I can honestly say that my only hope in all of this was to come to a place of brokenness before the Lord. The most important part of the prayer in the song Lead Me, that comes in the turn when it moves from the voice of a wife or a child asking a husband or father to lead, is that voice of the man turning to God to say, “Lead me as I lead them.” I do think for me, all the knowledge in the world, all the practical lessons in the world had no value whatsoever, until I came to a place of brokenness before God. Recognized not the reality of my failures for the sake of shame or for the sake of, as an exercise.
But recognize those as an opportunity to bring my weakness before God, and to allow Him to take my weakness and be strong. That was when for me, having that recognition before God, desperately being in a place where I was calling on Him to change my heart. That’s when I really began to feel the Spirit work in my heart, work in family, and give me a vision for what it looked like to use the gifts He had given me, in a context that was healthy for my relationship with the Lord, and also my relationship with my family. The Bible makes it very clear that we can sow, and we can work the fields, but only God gives the growth. That is the key that we just can’t miss.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. I was going to ask how Jesus, the gospel has played a role throughout all of this that you’ve been going through, but you just shared that now and the idea of that it starts on your knees, as you confess to Him your brokenness. Maybe you can elaborate on that, or maybe you could share a scripture or something that helped you through this time to meditate on. How has Jesus and the gospel played a role and His word?

Matt Hammitt:
Yeah, absolutely. I’m someone who like I deeply struggle with anxiety. I think I’m more so used to, and I’ve been working through this and God’s been doing this work in me. I think as I look at the life of Jesus and I look at the fact that even He faced as He faced sacrifice for us. As He prayed in the garden, is even He felt this sense of, not a sense, but He felt trembling. He felt the weight of facing the greatest sacrifice. He felt the weight of facing death. Even He cried out to His Father to save Him, if it be His will take this cup from me. I think that has brought me such comfort.
In Hebrews it talks about the high priest who understands all of our weaknesses. Jesus knows, He’s lived those weaknesses. He was to that point of desperation in His flesh, of not wanting to face hardship. I think for me, I think to myself, if He could face all that for us, it does bring me comfort, knowing that my greatest struggle in life has been nothing compared to what Christ faced. But even in that He surrendered to God’s will. He trusted God’s sovereignty. I do, I look at the end of Jesus’ life. I look at that sacrifice. I look at the struggle, and it does truly honestly bring me comfort in the face of whatever I may face on any given day that I’m going through.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. Matt, for those young men who are listening right now, who are, maybe they’re single but they’re searching, or maybe they’re dating right now, what are one or two things that you’d encourage and or warn them with?

Matt Hammitt:
Wow, that’s a good question. That’s what you say when you’re stalling to come up with a good answer, right?

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s okay.

Matt Hammitt:
No, there’s so much. I would say more than anything… I have to tell you something really funny. I have to tell you something hilarious. I promise it’ll circle back around to your question. I was with my buddy Carter on this Kirk Cameron tour that I was just doing. He said his great grandfather, the very final words that his great grandfather said to him before he died were this, he said, “Carter, it doesn’t matter how madly in love with you are, how madly in love you may be.” He says, “But marriage is barely tolerable.” I couldn’t believe it. Now obviously that’s an extreme sentiment. To varying degrees, there’s some truth to that. Dan Allender also said, “Marriage is the closest you’ll ever come to heaven, and it’s the closest you ever get the hell.”
Those great, wise men who have devoted their lives to the Lord still have this struggle, and I do love to remind people of that. That hey, you know what? You may be in the throes of being madly in love. You may imagine that things could never be tumultuous between you and the one you love. I would say make sure you’re building on the foundation that a marriage that lasts is built on. That the foundation is Christ. That the foundation is a like mind and a like spirit. That you have the same…. You might have different passions, you might be different people, but if that firm foundation of a relationship with Christ and the desire to build a family on it is not there, man either you need to build it, or be in a relationship where that’s what you’re building on. It will be the one thing that truly lasts when everything else feels like it’s falling apart.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good, and I appreciate you tackling that question. If I can throw one more at you. That same question but thinking about young women in that same kind of place, either dating or so on. Maybe when you think about your wife Sarah, and how she had to ask questions to you and talk to you. Maybe what’s one thing that you would encourage young women with as they consider marriage?

Matt Hammitt:
I would say as you look for a partner, or let’s say you find a man that you’re interested in walking that road with, or that you’re dating or engaged to. I would say be patient with him, but also patiently express what it is that you need. One of the things that really helped my marriage was along the way, I made a lot of changes in my leadership. But one of the changes that my wife made, was that she would hold in, in the early days some of her feelings, or some of her desires. She would allow those to come out almost as like anger, or a pointing finger at me as her leader for the things that she needed, or areas she felt like I was lacking. It was maybe a tone that wouldn’t really set off the conversation in the right way.
I think for women especially, it’s important to know number one, don’t hide those feelings if they’re important to you. But learn how to express them in a way that speaks life to the relationship. The tone that you choose to bring to the table when you do have a need, especially if it be revolving around leadership, or what he’s going to bring to the table spiritually. Find a way to open up those conversations just in a tone that creates a healthy dialogue that isn’t shame-based. I would also say, if you can’t have those conversations in any way without there being conflict, then that might be a sign that something maybe wrong more on a deeper level.

Isaac Dagneau:
Mm-hmm, that’s good. I appreciate that. Matt as we wrap up here, just as a final question. From all that you’ve learned on this life journey that you’ve had, including the reflection, the study with your book and your recent speaking engagements, and all that you’ve learned in all the conversations you’ve had with various husbands and wives across the country. What’s one thing you could just leave us with that you could just encourage us with? Taking everything at once, what’s the one thing you could say to encourage us today?

Matt Hammitt:
Man, there’s so much. In this time in particular, and I can probably say this now because I don’t think it’s just a momentary thing. I think that this panic that’s in the world right now will probably last for a couple of months to come. No matter who hears this or where we’re at in this cycle of this global pandemic and all the worry and all the fear, I’m just seeing that God is using this to really make His people shine. I’m seeing marriages and families really shine through all this. I’m seeing… Talking to people every single day whose families are getting through it and coming together and leaning more on Christ than they ever have.
I believe that the family, a godly family is the greatest hope of our world. Family life always says that the family is God’s smallest battle formation for the hearts of the world. I would just say to men especially and to couples, as you lead, remember that God has called you to something great, but He will never leave you lacking in the resources. Lean into Him and in your weakness He will be strong. I mostly want to say that to all the Christian families out there who are being a light, God bless you. You’re going to make it, and you’re going to be a light and there’s an eternal reward for us in the end.

Isaac Dagneau:
That’s so good. Well, thank you for leaving us with those words. That’s it for now, but we just so appreciate having you on the show today, Matt, and we hope to have you on again soon.

Matt Hammitt:
Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I’m blessed to be here.

Kourtney Cromwell:
What a great opportunity to be able to hear from Matt, and I hope that his story has served as an inspiration for you. Or I hope that this was at least an opportunity to start an inward conversation about this topic. That reality check of, do I just want to be that person or is that actually who others perceive me to be? If you’d like to follow along with Matt in his every day on Instagram, you can follow him at Matt Hammitt, or you can go to his website, www.matthammitt.com.
Anything else that Isaac and Matt talked about will be up on our website in the link section of this episode. With all of that, I hope that you join us next week for another new episode of indoubt, where Isaac has the chance to talk with pastor and author, David Mathis about biblical disciplines and forming habits of grace.

Kourtney Cromwell:
Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify, or visit us online at indoubt.ca or indoubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.