Ep. 253: Christian Online Dating

Daniel Markin:

Hey, welcome to indoubt. My name is Daniel Markin and today I’m joined by Angie Velasquez Thornton. Angie, how are you doing?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

I’m great, how are you?

Daniel Markin:

I’m doing well. Thank you for asking. This is going to be a fun episode simply because we are talking about online dating. Now, I know this is a young adults podcast and I know anytime there’s anything related to dating, young adults show up. I know this from Young Adult Ministry and I know this from even stuff at church when there’s relationship sermons.

Daniel Markin:

But I think the reason for that, Angie, is because it’s such a difficult thing to navigate, the dating world. And so, I’m excited that we’re going to be talking about this new aspect, in some ways, a completely brand new aspect of online dating. So before we begin though, why don’t you tell us a little bit about who you are, where you came from, what your day-to-day looks like?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Sure. Well, I am from California originally and I am of Colombian descent and I was a missionary with my husband and kids in Senegal, West Africa for 10 years. And then due to some health challenges in our family, the Lord led us to move to Montreal, Quebec, Canada where we continue to serve with Crossworld, that’s the name of our mission. And we continue to serve in the same area, which is theological education. So my husband and I both have seminary degrees and we love teaching the Bible and training leaders, and so that’s what we were involved in then and that’s what we continue to do now.

Daniel Markin:

Awesome. So Senegal, back to Montreal. So I can hear two different culture shifts here. One, because you go from California to Africa, which would be completely different and Senegal, but then what was that shift like going back to not California, but to Montreal? Does everyone there speak French? I hear mixed things that Quebec City is more French than Montreal.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Yes. So the majority of people around us are bilingual and there are pockets of unilingual only speaking French and only speaking English, but it is a very bilingual city. So we adjusted well to life here, we had already lived in Quebec because in order to go to Senegal, which is a French-speaking country, my husband needed to go to language school. I already spoke French since I had taken it in high school. And I had done some overseas work in French-speaking countries, but my husband learned French. He went to the University of Laval and studied French for a year and a half. So we had already dipped their toes into culture and life in Quebec.

Daniel Markin:

Well, that’s perfect. I mean, I only took French, I took it through high school, but then I took it into university as well. And the one thing I was not prepared for is I thought with my grade 12 French, I’d be like, “I don’t need to take intro French.” I did my degree in Chicago and I got thrown into an advanced third year French class with three other people and I killed. I’m like, “Is this college? Am I always going to be like this now?” Doing workbook into late hours on Google Translate.

Daniel Markin:

So I would love to spend more time studying French in the future, but let’s get the Lord has. But what Lord has for us right now is we’re discussing dating. So Angie, let me just open the conversation like this. I believe that my generation in particular, being a millennial has an interesting perspective on the world right now because so much of what we do exists online. So for someone like yourself as you look at my generation, what are some of the questions and concerns that you have [inaudible 00:03:44] your approach to dating?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, what I often tell people, young people when I talk about how I met my husband is, “Yeah, we met online,” but internet dating is not for the undiscerning. So I’m not at all suggesting that millennials aren’t discerning, but I’m suggesting that this is an occasion, an opportunity to really exercise those muscles by dating in community, by having accountability. By bringing a disembodied voice into real life with your friends, your parents, your church.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

So it’s really important that when it comes to internet dating that young people consider that there are a lot of predators out there and that it’s important to be wise and who you let into your life.

Daniel Markin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). And how did you meet your husband?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

So just a little background. When I was 18-years-old, I was on a missions trip in Africa in Senegal, actually. And there I prayed a prayer to commit my life to serve God overseas in Africa as a missionary, if that was God’s will. And I went to a secular university, I went to UCLA after that. And when I finished my BA and my parents gave me their encouragement to continue my secular studies.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

And so I went on to get an MA at UCLA in African studies, all with the idea of being a better prepared missionary. But after I finally finished grad school at UCLA, my parents encouraged me or gave me their blessing at any rate to go to seminary. And that’s when I moved to Chicago and I-

Daniel Markin:

You went to Chicago as well?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

I did, I went to Moody Seminary.

Daniel Markin:

Okay, great. I went to North Park so.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Okay.

Daniel Markin:

Not very close to Moody at least illogically, but I have to say people always ask about Moody. Sorry. Go ahead.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Yeah. How cool. So while I was there, I pursued an MDiv and when I graduated 10 years had elapsed since I had been in Senegal, and I had never met a single guy with the same theological conviction and the same calling to work in Senegal. And I specifically wanted to be involved in theological education, but I didn’t want to be on my own training pastors as a woman. Because especially in an African culture, it’s kind of unusual for women to be training men exclusively.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

If you do that in partnership with a husband, it’s a different story, but I just was uncomfortable with that idea of going off on my own. I struggled to know what the Lord had for me when I hadn’t met someone yet. So I took a chance. I went on a Christian single site and I won’t even mention it because it wasn’t a good one, but I met my husband there. And when we started talking, I found out that not only was he preparing to be a missionary in Africa, because that’s all his profile said about his occupation. But he was specifically committed to serve in Senegal and not just in [crosstalk 00:06:35], but yeah specifically in theological education. So within a year, we got married and the rest is history. It’s been 15 and a half wonderful years.

Daniel Markin:

That’s amazing. So, okay. So both of us have this online dating experience because I’m coming up on a one-year anniversary with my wife and we met on an online dating, but you know things have obviously changed. We met on Bumble, which is a dating app where it’s kind of like Tinder, which is notoriously known as a hookup app. But Bumble for whatever reason, I think was kind of viewed at least in our Christian circles as a more wholesome way to do it. The women are the ones who message first. So if you have a match, the woman messages first.

Daniel Markin:

Anyways, my wife appeared on there and I liked what I saw. And I was like, “Oh.” And then I read her bio and it said Christian. And that was a big thing where I was like, “Okay.” And she saw that I guess on me, but the cool thing about it is you could actually kind of narrow it down in that sense, but based on religion. But her bio said, “I think that girls messaging first is dumb.” She’s like, “Shoot me a message on Instagram.” So I did that and I had a nicely well-formed message. I kind of went through as much information I could gather from her. And I made this perfect message, well-laid out. “Let’s go get tacos and a coffee and get to know each other.”

Daniel Markin:

Made some inside jokes and I get a three-word response. “Are you a Christian? Or four words, “Are you a Christian?” I was like, “Wow, I just crafted this amazing thing.” But those are the exact words I wanted to hear. I was at an interesting crossroads because I had to ask myself, “Yes, I’m a Christian, but I’m studying to become a pastor.” So I’m as Christian as you can get. I didn’t respond to that. All that to say, you were mentioning something about discernment. And that’s an interesting piece because what my perspective on the online dating scene is it’s effectively advertising. And here’s what I mean.

Daniel Markin:

It’s like you are able to spread your reach. If you’re engaging in online dating, you’re spreading your reach to people that you would never meet otherwise. And so, that’s why I think it’s a really neat thing. Elise and I probably wouldn’t have met, although we found out afterwards we had all of these mutual friends, but the chances of meeting were way harder. However, once we did co connect, we still had to discern and work through that together like you would in any relationship.

Daniel Markin:

So I think online dating serves as an interesting way to meet someone on the front end. And I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I would really encourage people to not keep it online, but try and make that as short as possible and try and get in one another’s proximity, whatever that looks like. Go on a date as quickly as possible because I think you actually get to know somebody way better, even with chemistry when it’s in person. Would you agree?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Absolutely. In fact, when my husband and I began communicating, we emailed and spoke over the phone for a little bit less than a month. And then he flew from Toronto to come see me for the first time. It was an expensive date and I had to find him lodging because he wasn’t crashing in my place. And so, one of my buddies, a guy friend hosted him and he spent two days because he wanted to feel it out first. So he didn’t want to stay much longer in case it didn’t work out, but it was long enough for us to recognize that there was potential there.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

So I definitely encourage people to meet as soon as possible and to meet one another’s family and friends as soon as possible as well. If someone goes to the trouble of buying an airplane ticket or driving a significant distance to see you to meet you for the first time, it’s important I believe that they need as many of the people that know you as possible so that they can see who you really are. Because people can be disingenuous when they’re alone and they’re isolated.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

But the way that I treat my friends is not going to change just because he’s there or at least not as much. And the way when I went to visit him in rural Ontario and I met his parents and I stayed with them for a few days and I saw how he treated his mom, his dad, his brother. That showed me a lot more about him than if I had just continued to isolate myself with him, which we avoided.

Daniel Markin:

Definitely. And you bring up something amazing too, which is this idea of community. Which is one of the strongest things about being a Christian is you get brought into this new community. And I think that with that, there is accountability and the more accountable you can be to your friends and your family, I think the better it will go for you in a dating experience in regards to just different temptations that can happen.

Daniel Markin:

One with the temptation to spend completely isolate. I think we all have those friends and we make front of them, they just disappear. You never see them again. Granted when you’re in a relationship, you are going to spend more time with that person because that’s where your priority is, but there are those who completely disappear and they cut off from all community. And I think that’s super dangerous.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Yep. Absolutely. I agree.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. And so, being together in community is huge and part of that discernment, but you’re right. I heard one guy describe it. He said, “I want to see what it was like to serve with this perspective girl.” And so, one of their first dates was serving I think at a soup kitchen. So they got to have this kind of interaction and see how they were to strangers, how they were to people they just met, et cetera. And that was a real, a unique thing that I kind of remember and then try to bring that into my dating relationship.

Daniel Markin:

So yeah. That’s another thing that I just always recommend. And you had completely mentioned this as well is once you’re then together, ask hard questions. Now, when do you recommend asking these hard questions? When’s to sooner relationship or when is it too late to start asking these hard questions? And if you could tell us, Angie, what are these hard questions?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, I think that you can’t assume that everyone’s going to be honest, but you can tell even by the reaction to one of those kinds of, “Ooh, that question makes me uncomfortable.” You can tell unless a person’s really good at lying, you can tell where they’re at. So in our day and age, I think it’s important to ask one another do you struggle with pornography? Do you have an online gambling problem? Do you have a substance abuse problem, et cetera?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

These kinds of questions can make people uncomfortable, but if you’re willing to open up to one another, then you can move forward together potentially, or you can know where you stand and end it before it goes too far.

Daniel Markin:

Definitely. Well, and I think another question to ask too is to … And again, this takes discernment and sensitivity, but describe your previous sexual involvement with other relationships, right? Statistics will show that just because you’re a Christian doesn’t necessarily mean that they aren’t sleeping around. In fact, a lot of stats will show that young adult Christians have a similar sexual lifestyle as non-Christians. So I think it’s important to ask that.

Daniel Markin:

At the same time, though, it’s important to acknowledge everyone has a past, but that the Lord really take over someone’s life later on in their life and that is their past. And so, one of the things that we definitely need to work through is that exact thing and understanding that, “Hey, look, no one is perfect.” And I think it can become dangerous if we start to hold over people that we are more righteous than them in our past. Whereas like yeah, maybe one person had a real struggle with pornography. The other one is a chronic liar. And so you’re right. I think having these really difficult discussions is so essential.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Daniel Markin:

[crosstalk 00:15:26] Go ahead. Sorry.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

I was going to say that I think that being in community is part of what will help you move forward in dealing with whatever challenges you might face. Whether it’s a past issue where you just struggle with the shame of the lifestyle choices that you made, or whether it’s an ongoing difficulty, an addiction or so forth. The brothers and sisters, the church, the pastor, the parents that are involved in your relationship are a good indication of who that person is already looking to help them with those vices.

Daniel Markin:

You’re right. And you can use the family and your friends to discern the person like, “Yeah, that’s who they are now, but what’s their trajectory.” Who’s the person they’re becoming? Because that’s also something that I think if you can see those steps, you see growth, you see all sorts of things in men and women. But I think patience comes with that. And so all that to say and I would describe dating is challenging. The dating world is difficult, but I think it’s really difficult because it fillets you in the sense that you have to completely open yourself up to not only like the other person, but also your own kind of brokenness, and your own difficulties and frustrations. Because those get pointed out to you.

Daniel Markin:

And so it means that you have to really work on those. So you’ve been married 15 years?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Yes.

Daniel Markin:

What mistakes do you see young people making now as they’re dating as you talk with people and you mentor a younger people?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Well, specifically when it comes to online dating, I haven’t been on an online dating site for 15+ years, but I’m told like you mentioned that some sites are designed for hookups. And so, I think that Christians really need to consider the means that they use, the medium because it matters. So when I mentioned before that I met on a Christian single site that wasn’t that great. It wasn’t because it was only about hookups. It just didn’t have a lot of clarity as to how they functioned and to help have some screening.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

But one thing that I did like about it is that the profile questions were very detailed. So you didn’t just see a picture of a good looking girl or a good looking guy and say, “Well, that’s enough for me. I want to meet this person.” But there was a lot of ways to get to know more about that person. So I think that people should know what they want ahead of time. And it really helped me that when I was in seminary or just after I graduated, I worked on campus and one of my colleagues was an older married man with a lot of wisdom. And he told me that I should prepare ahead of time before meeting my husband Dan in person.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

He said, “You need to come up with a very detailed list of what you’re looking for. Because if you don’t know what you want, he’s going to meet every criteria because you don’t have any to begin with.” So he told me that I should have a list of three things, things that I must have in a potential suitor, things that I would like, like I want to have and things that are likes that are preferences that would be cool. And then he said that to even be even more precise on each of those lists. So on the first page on the musts, he said, “You should have three columns. One is for the item itself. Next is for the reason why that’s important to you. And finally, the third column is a scenario in which you could see that happening.”

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

So for example, he said, “Let’s say, you want to know if the person is generous. You don’t ask them.” So are you generous? Because you’ll see that. It’ll be difficult for the person to say anything, but, “What? Of course I’m generous. Of course I’m humble” or et cetera. But observe them without testing them constantly. Just try to be in scenarios. Like you said with your friend who went to the soup kitchen together. Try to create natural circumstances where you see them and their character in action.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

And the other thing I would mention is that under the musts, it’s important that those not be shallow things like it doesn’t matter how much the person weighs or how tall they are or how hot they are. What matters is that are they serious about their faith? Because when your now wife asked you if you were a Christian, the fact that she asked that and nothing else, it just showed her character. It showed that this crafted email that you sent her, might’ve been interesting, but it didn’t matter if you weren’t not just a Christian, but serious about your faith.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Because maybe you mentioned it in your profile, but it could have been lost in between all the other answers that you gave. But when she asked about your faith, it’s because she wanted to know just how serious is this guy about his faith. Tell me about your faith and then I want to hear about which deep dish pizza restaurant in Chicago is your favorite. You know what I mean?

Daniel Markin:

Totally. And the answer to that is Giordano’s for anyone listening, but no you’re right-

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Gino’s East, Gino’s East.

Daniel Markin:

I know that one too. And then of course there’s Lou Malnati’s, it’s the big three. Getting off topic about pizza and now I’m hungry. You’re so right though and I like the list thing. I was encouraged to do the same thing, but we also can’t with that let the horse get ahead of the cart. Because imagine if you had some musts in your must column. He must be this, he must be this, he must be this, but say if a person meets four or five of them, but one of them isn’t, “Well, I don’t think that person’s a very strong Christian.”

Daniel Markin:

I think you have to be very careful in that until you can actually discern more because it might like you said, on the surface look like they’re meeting all these criteria. And even if they’re meeting some of these really good criteria, you’re going to need some time to actually really discern and sort that out.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Definitely. And I honestly believe that the must list will be the shortest because you need to defend that with scripture. This isn’t just superficial things like I said. It’s things that go to the heart of who his person is and the secondary things should go on the wants list like, “Well, I wanted my husband to be very like-minded with me theologically.” Because as a trained theologian, I wanted to make sure that we weren’t teaching different views on a number of issues that Bible teachers teach.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

So those things were very important to me, but for someone else, their wants would be different. It is important to distinguish between the musts, which should be based on scripture. And the wants, which might be vocational, might be strong preferences and things like that.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. And you want unity in those things. And I think what you’re saying too, especially with you going into ministry there to have your marriage partner would be on a completely different theological stance as you that would always be a challenge. And so I think it’s important to find someone who is theologically on the same playing field. It doesn’t necessarily mean they have to be as strong as another person. There are people who were at different levels of the relationship. Like in my relationship for example, I’m the one studying to become a pastor. And at the time Elise was studying at Emily Carr School of Design. So we had two completely different fields.

Daniel Markin:

So I kind of took on more of the theological I guess leadership. That was more my strength in the relationship. But for her, her stance on this was, “Yeah, but I want to learn.” I can help explain things to her and lead her in that way. And so, one of the things I really appreciated about Elise was she was not combative in that. She wasn’t just always pushing back. She said, “No, that’s one of your strengths. Let me learn and grow in that.” But that was a nice side of unity with her entrusting me with that.

Daniel Markin:

And of course over time, you’re going to grow and you’re going to learn more things. You mentioned kind of everything being built on scripture. And I think when we come to dating, we have to ask the why and why do we date? What’s the purpose of dating? Because we don’t see any how to manuals in the Bible. It’s not a textbook for dating. It gives us the real why. And so as you look at scripture, what would you say is the why?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

That’s a great question. I think that if you believe that the Lord is calling you to build a family with someone, that you believe that he has not given you the gift of singleness. And if you want to pursue glorifying Christ in all that you do for his kingdom advancement with a life partner, then pursue online dating as a means to finding the person that God would lead you to.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

But if you don’t know if marriage is something that you desire, then there is no real reason for dating. Because dating is not something that we do casually or that we do just for fun. We can do that with all kinds of friends. But because dating involves an element of affection and of commitment that is moving you somewhere, if you don’t have a desire to be married and to commit for life, then you waste someone’s time.

Daniel Markin:

Definitely, definitely. I kept telling Elise that too as we were discerning stuff. It’d be like, “Look, I don’t want to waste your time and I don’t want to waste my time.” And I probably say that all the time because that’s kind of how I felt about it. But I think what you’re saying there is right on. This idea that as believers and I love this illustration, but you’re running your race of faith. And you’re running towards the Lord. And I think as we are designed part of the creation design in the scene of Genesis is God makes us male and female and gives us desire to be with one another.

Daniel Markin:

Adam and Eve get married. And they actually now run together in this race. And so Adam and Eve are this model and this is the design of God. Is that the two become one flesh that they run together, and they pursue the Lord together. And that this design is a good thing. It’s a biblical thing. And so all that to say, what we’re doing is we’re living in the Lord’s design. And like you touched on for people who are single, it might mean that’s not part of your story yet. Or if you have the gift of singleness, it opens up a lot of different avenues. It might not mean the depth of relationship, but it means you have access to a lot more breadth of relationship.

Daniel Markin:

Which is also an amazing, beautiful thing that some people are called to and they can really serve the kingdom well. Yeah, in alignment with what you just said, the why is you want to pursue the Lord together and you both use your gifts to serve him and live out the design and be fruitful and multiply and fall what the Lord has for us in that. Whether that looks like raising children or mentoring or you name it. There’s so many different issues we get down the line of. But yeah, I like that perspective that you just shared. Would you add anything else to that?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

No, I think that’s pretty much what I had in mind.

Daniel Markin:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). So as we, I guess, kind of come in for a landing here, one of the things that I just want to encourage our listeners with is as someone who just kind of came out of this dating world, it’s tough. It’s going to be challenging. It’s going to be stretching to you in kind of some of the ways that we discussed. But everything in life that is good is worth fighting for. And we see that marriage is something that is good. And so it’s worth working through your own sin. It’s worth working through the sin of your perspective marriage partner as you guys both pursued the Lord together and head towards this amazing, amazing union with one another, but also with Christ.

Daniel Markin:

And I would just add onto this too. I had a lot of friends get married around the same time. And some people would say, “Oh, it’s so challenging. It’s so difficult.” Coming up on one year of marriage, one of the things that Elise and I were encouraged by some of our other friends, and we want to just kind of pass on to all our listeners is it is so much fun being married. You really sense that this is part of God’s design. And so it’s a lot of fun. What would you add to that, Angie?

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Definitely. I got married in my 30s, so I had a very long singleness years. I had very long singleness years and at times I was discouraged and I wondered if the Lord was calling me to singleness. And I was content and I was serving the Lord and I was traveling. My summers were usually spent overseas and doing ministry. And looking back, I’m thankful for those years. So to anyone single who’s listening to us, don’t be discouraged if the Lord hasn’t yet brought the right person into your life and just continue to pursue him and to be faithful to him. And invest yourself into the relationships that you do have with the people around you.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Because my best friend and I, we lived together for six years when I was at UCLA and when I was at Moody, she had happened to go to grad school in Chicago as well after she graduated from UCLA. So we were together for a long time and those were some of the best years of my life. Not as good as being married. For me, I mean, I love my husband and our marriage is wonderful. But I look back on my single years with so much gratitude that the Lord gave me a best friend like Grace. That he gave me a church community and close friends to grow alongside of.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

So don’t feel like you’re just sitting around waiting for God to give you the desire of your heart, but let him be the desire of your heart and enjoy the friendships and the opportunities to serve him that are all around you. Because if you’re not content single, you won’t be content married. And if you’re lonely when you have friends and family around you, then your husband won’t or your wife won’t be able to fill that void either. So just delight in Christ. That’s what I would conclude with.

Daniel Markin:

A 100%. And you want to be able to delight in Christ with your partner. And so, that is in the end what’s the most important thing here is that all of this is pointing to Jesus and we need to be doing our best to follow him. And I would also add too, what you said was perfect. I think it was John Piper who always says, “Don’t waste your singleness.” And that’s such a big point is each of us have a different race. And some of you are running the race alone right now. And that’s what God has for you.

Daniel Markin:

So don’t be sad in that, but be expectant that what you’re doing is in the plan of God for you. And as it always does, when the person, the one, when Elise came along, it came out of nowhere. I was pursuing the Lord. I was working at my church. I was single in that way and the Lord brought Elise out of nowhere and it has transformed me. It has changed me. Christ has been doing an amazing work through Elise to me. And so together, our aim hasn’t changed. It’s to serve the Lord.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Amen.

Daniel Markin:

Yeah. So anyways, if you’re listening to this, be encouraged. There’s so many other avenues we could go on. But Angie, thank you for your time. Thank you for being a part of this episode. I feel like we’re brushing the surface, but I think your perspective is really helpful and it’ll be helpful for everyone as they’re, again, looking at relationships, but wanting to do this in a godly way. So again, thank you.

Angie Velasquez Thornton:

Thank you for having me. It was my pleasure to be here.