Ep. 229: Where is God After Suffering?

Welcome to the indoubt podcast, where we explore the challenging topics that young adults often face. Each week, we talk with guests who help answer questions of faith, life, and culture, connecting them to our daily experiences and God’s word. For more info on indoubt, visit indoubt.ca or indoubt.com.

Erika:

Hey, it’s Erika. We’re so happy you’re here to join us for today’s episode of indoubt. Today’s episode involves a very powerful story of suffering and loss. How do you continue on with life and even a life of serving God when everything seems to go wrong? How do you pick yourself up off the floor when the very ground you’re standing on gets taken out from underneath of you? Join Joshua as he sits down with Vaneetha Rendall Risner, an author, wife and mother who has overcome more suffering than most of us could even imagine. This is a powerful conversation that answers the tough question, where is God after suffering? We’re so glad you’re joining us and hope you enjoy the episode.

Joshua Scott:

Hey, welcome to indoubt, my name’s Joshua. I’m one of your hosts. And for those of you who’ve been longtime listeners of our podcast, you might remember a conversation that Isaac has had with Vaneetha Rendall Risner. She shared her story, and an incredible story of suffering, and yet God’s steadfast love his faithfulness and how he meets us in our sufferings. And so I’m excited today to have a followup conversation to that where Vaneetha has graciously accepted the invitation to join us again, and we’re going to talk about the aftermath of our suffering, that not only does God meet us when we’re in the fire, when we feel like the knife is in our hearts, but he meets us when we’re trying to heal our wounds, when we’re just waiting for the burns to go away, we’re waiting for the scars to heal. And maybe they do, and maybe they don’t. And so we’re going to talk about how do we press on, how do we look at those events in our lives and recognize, okay, God was with me and recognize that God is with me, and I want to carry on and be faithful to him and trust him? And so I’m beyond excited to have Vaneetha with us today. So Vaneetha, thanks so much for joining us.

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

Oh, I’m so excited to be here, Joshua. Thanks for having me.

Joshua Scott:

It’s great having you. So I wonder if we could just start by having you share a little bit about your story and particularly get into the piece of how you came to know Christ.

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

Great. And I’d love to. Well, I want to kind of back up, even before I came to know Christ, just to give you a little bit of background on me. So I was born in India to Christian parents. And when I was three months old, I contracted polio. And polio had been almost eradicated by them. The vaccines had been developed. So the doctors had no idea what it was. And I was … in India, they gave the polio vaccine at six months and I was just three months old. But nobody had seen it before, so the doctor gave me the wrong medicine. And within 24 hours, I was completely paralyzed. And so then the doctor said, “Oh yeah, she actually has polio, and there’s nothing we can do.” So my parents left India pretty quickly after that because the doctor said, “We really can’t do anything here, and in the West, they have different kinds of surgeries. They can help.” So my parents left, moved to England, and that’s when I had my first surgery at two years old. And by the time I was 13, I had had 21 operations. So I lived actually in the hospital for … at some point a whole year at a time. I was in a body cast, flat on my back in a ward where I didn’t even get to see my parents. They could visit on weekends. So I grew up pretty much on my own. I would say for the first probably eight years of my life, half of it was in the hospital. And that was pretty formative for me because my parents were believers, but I wanted nothing to do with God. I was so angry because it seemed like everybody had this perfect life. And when I was out of the hospital and at church, people would always talk about how I needed to trust God. And I felt like, “Trust God for you looks very different than trust God for me.” And so I said the right stuff, because I’m kind of a pleaser, so I was able to say the right stuff. But inside, I didn’t feel that at all. And it wasn’t until I got to high school and basically one night just said, “God, if you’re real show me.” And He did. I got up the next morning, opened the Bible. And I had been asking the question of, “God, why did this happen? If you’re so good, why would you do this?” And that morning when I opened the Bible, I flipped open to John nine. And it’s when Jesus is talking to his disciples and they ask him who sinned. They walked by a blind man, and they say, “Who sinned, this man or parents, that he was born blind?” And Jesus says, “It wasn’t that this man sinned or his parents, but that the work of God would be displayed in his life.” And I remember that moment was incredible. I still remember, I was just sitting in my bed, thinking, “God is talking to me. I don’t even know who this is,” but I had the sense that, “This is God, and he’s telling me that my life has purpose.” And that changed everything. It sort of rewrote what I thought about myself and my disability, whereas I felt like it was a sign that God hated me really. If there was a God, God hated me, to the sense that I don’t get why, but there’s a reason for this and God has kind of entrusted me with this, which is sort of a weird thing. I was 16 years old, but I didn’t know what that meant. But at the time I thought it meant that God was about to give me the best life I could possibly imagine. So I was pretty much banking on that. I remember talking to other people thinking, “You have no idea what suffering is coming into your life, but my life is going to be amazing.” And it was amazing. I mean, it’s still has been amazing, but for the next 10 years, everything I did was wonderful. Got into every college I wanted to, got into grad school, I mean just everything. And then my life sort of came crashing down around me when I was in my early 30s. I had a son, I was actually pregnant, found out we’re going to have a son with a heart problem. And so he was born with a heart problem and had surgery and was doing amazingly well. And so we thought, “Wow, this is great. He’s going to be fine.” And then we went to see a doctor as our regular doctor was gone, so there was a substitute in town. And he took our son off all his medicine, saying, “Oh, he’s doing so well,” because he was doing so well. But he took them off. And within three days he died. And I remember that was really a huge crisis for me because this wasn’t the life I thought God was about to give me. I thought everything was going to be great. And I thought that being faithful meant that God was going to really take away everything else now that I was a believer. And so it really shook my theology. I would say I responded well at first, well meaning I said the right stuff. We spoke at Paul’s funeral and we talked about the faithfulness of God, but I don’t think I really knew what that meant. And I would say two weeks after Paul died, I was in the biggest pit of my life. And I think the hardest part was that I had told hundreds of people at Paul’s funeral that God never makes a mistake. And I was sitting on my bed thinking, “God, you’ve made tons of mistakes and this was a huge mistake.” And I didn’t know how to even reconcile that and just pulled away from God. And I remember though being in the car one day and just sort of the sense of, “I can’t pull away from God any longer. I need God in the midst of weakness.” And I just asked God, “Just help me.” And I put in a worship tape and all of a sudden, the presence of God filled my car in a way that I can’t describe. And turned off the tape even and just was like, “God, show me who you are.” And this sense of joy flooded me that I would say to this day, that is probably the most joyful I’ve ever felt in my life. And it was just realizing Jesus is here. Jesus is meeting me. I’m going to see Paul again. And I’m never going to lose this God, this sense of God. And so that was probably a really big turning point in my life. And soon after that, I heard a John Piper tape, and he just talked about how God really is in our suffering. And he measures it out to the very ounce and that’s was radical thinking for me. Because I felt like God had allowed out my suffering and had sort of a vague sort of purpose. But in a lot of ways, I felt like Satan was sort of in charge and God was the cleanup crew, like Satan does this stuff and God’s like, “Okay, I’m going to figure this out for you.” And then this idea that Satan’s not in charge, God is in charge. And Satan really does not have the last word in anything. And that really changed my view of suffering going forward, I would say, is trying to find what is God trying to show me through this? And sometimes we don’t know that, but how could God be using this? And that really shaped how I faced the rest of my suffering. Although I was assuming that I would not have much more, because I was still like, “Okay, God, now I’ve got the two things, I’m really done.” But then through a series of things, I developed some pain in my arm that would not go away. The doctors couldn’t figure out what it was. So finally went to a clinic where they diagnosed me with post-polio syndrome, which is basically a disease which 70% of the people who have polio get, and your muscles basically start to go backwards, and they go backwards to the point that they will eventually be, or could eventually be, the way you were when you first got polio. And for some people that’s … their arm isn’t working, but for me, I was a quadriplegic. So they basically said, “You’ve got to stop doing everything you’re doing,” because part of the … I think the hardest part of this disease is that you’re wearing out your muscles. So the more you do, the weaker you get. So you’re sort of in charge of a piece of how fast you go downhill. So don’t wear out your muscles. Don’t do too much. Just kind of sit in your house and eat bon-bons, and you’re going to be good. And I mean, I was okay with part of that, but it was … I gave up certain things like vacuuming in an instant, but there were some other things that were really hard for me to give up. And God was … I felt God’s presence through that, but it was a really hard loss because I had spent most of my life trying to accomplish and to realize that I’d have to give up so many things that I had done. And that was hard. But then just kind of adjusted to that. And then six years later, my husband came home and told me he was leaving me for someone else. And that was really, I would say, the lowest point in my life. I had two adolescent daughters, they were aged 10 and 13. I was homeschooling them and our life just fell apart. I mean, they were angry. I was angry. Dave had left, he’d moved to another state, and I was a single parent with a body that was deteriorating. And I had no idea what suffering was I feel like in some ways until then, because I felt like I had no hope. And even when Paul died, I felt like I had Dave with me and through the post-polio, but I just felt alone. And yet I would say that experience changed my faith in that I found that God will walk with you. When you have nobody else and it feels like you are alone in your house, God’s there. And I experienced that in such an incredible way that it wasn’t this one moment. It was years of just God walking, getting up with me, walking through the day with me, going to bed with me. It became this continuous fellowship that I don’t think I had experienced before. It was more like, I’d have a good quiet time, it’d be like, “Wow, that was amazing.” But after this, I felt like every day, because I needed God, He showed up.

Joshua Scott:

Wow. That’s very cool. So that is an incredible story of just event after event. I can’t imagine how beat up you would feel after just one of those things, let alone all four or more, I’m sure. But I just love the way you described that last piece. And, and maybe we could drill into that. And maybe that’s kind of the heart of our question today. How is it that you felt and experienced God’s presence in those times?

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

Yeah, it was really reading the Bible. I mean, I think before that, I had read the Bible as sort of like medicine, you got to take this and maybe a spoonful of sugar will come with it. And some days it’s going to be amazing and you’re going to just feel like you’ve learned something and met God, and other days it’s going to be like cardboard. And a lot of other days … after the day, it feels like cardboard, you feel like, “Why do I want to get up and do this again?” And then you can go days and maybe weeks because it feels like, “Well, I have a faith, God cares. I can meet God on the run.” And then soon or later after a while, God is just this idea of safe, but he’s not somebody you talk to all day. And I found though that in the midst of that crisis, I had to hear from God, because there was nobody else to give me advice. There was nobody else to talk to. So crazily enough, I ended up getting up earlier than I used to because … I was homeschooling two kids. I was a single parent. I was going to bed late. And I thought, “This is the time of my life, where I have no time.” Part of me wanted to say, “I have no time to meet you, God, in the day. So you’re going to have to meet me on the run.” But somehow I felt like God said … I experienced it. I got up early and I found God was right there. And when I opened the Bible, like it became alive to me because I needed it. I was looking for God in it versus looking for information. And I feel like that way of reading the Bible changed me, because I think for the longest time I thought reading the Bible was information. And through that, I was like, “God, you’ve got to show me what I need to see. You’ve got to transform me. You’ve got to encourage me. You’ve got to give me wisdom. You’ve got to do all these things. And the only way I know to hear from you is in this Bible. So you’ve got to speak.” And He did. I mean, I wrote pages and pages every day, and God spoke. And I think because I never expected the Bible to do all that for me, it never did. Because I didn’t go hungry. I didn’t go expecting. I went to check off the box to be really honest. And it was when I realized this isn’t checking off the box, this is what I need need, verses just became alive to me. Things that I had read so many times before and thought that I knew became everything to me. And I just understood what this with God life is like. I mean, I think this verse from Isaiah 43, “Fear not, for I have redeemed you. I’ve called you by name. You are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned and the flames shall not consume you.” That verse I memorized because that was what God did for me. When I walked through the fire, I was not burned. And it was because He was with me. And I that’s how I got it, was every day, just getting up, opening the Bible, and reading.

Joshua Scott:

When you look back at those events, each … so the first doctor who treats you poorly for polio and it forces you to be a quadriplegic, and then the second doctor with your son, and then hearing that your body’s going to start deteriorating, and then that your husband chooses to leave you. When you look back at each of those things, when you say that you … even as you quoted that verse in Isaiah, knowing that you will not be burned, but then looking back at those things, do you feel like … as God has walked with you, as you’ve walked with Him, do you look back and say, “Yeah, he has healed me. And what was broken in me has been restored,” or is that still happening?

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

Oh, it’s definitely still happening. I think … my first book, The Scars That Have Shaped Me, scars are evidence of a healed wound, but there’s a wound. And I don’t know if the wound is … I mean, there’s a scar, but I think the memory of the wound and all that that has happened, it never leaves. You look at the scar and you remember. It’s not like there’s nothing left. And I think that reminds me to rely on God. And there are times when I, I fall back into, “This is hard. It’s not supposed to be this way.” I have remarried. I have an amazing husband, but my kids have been through a divorce and my body is breaking down. And some days it’s fine, and other days I can’t cut my food. And somebody’s helping me in ways that I never want to be helped. And in those moments, I’m crying out to God, “How long, oh Lord?” It’s not this easy, upward trajectory. It’s a dependence on God that is every day. And there are times I get really down over a lot of things that have been hard and there have been woes. And part of it is keeping the wound clean and taking it back to God and not letting it faster because I think some of the problem is our wounds, sometimes we tell ourselves lies through them. “I’m not good enough.” I was bullied a lot when I was young. And I feel like through that, I kept telling myself that I wasn’t good enough. And I still hear those messages and I have to give them to God every time. So I wouldn’t say that I don’t doubt and I don’t fear and I don’t worry and I feel all wonderful after all this happened.

Joshua Scott:

Right. So how would you describe then the process of healing, of that scar taking form over a wound like that, where a lot of people seem to have … for those particularly who haven’t gone through significant suffering in their lives, I’ve seen people have a perspective about it that’s kind of a, “Pick yourself up and brush off your shoulders and carry on.” In some ways … like you look at a story like David, in some ways similar to the story of your son. I mean, David commits sin, right? But because of that, God chooses to let his firstborn son die. And then while he’s afflicted and the boy is passing away, David is weeping and he’s broken. And then suddenly he finds out that the baby is gone and he gets up and he worships and he gets back to normal life. And it’s almost as if nothing … there’s no description of the healing process there. And it’s not because it’s not there. It’s just it isn’t given to us in the story. But I think some people have a picture of suffering that once you’re through it, okay, you’re through it. Now carry on. But how would you describe what that’s actually like

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

For me, it’s been very, very different from that and it’s slow. And there’s a quote from some guy named Pierre. it’s a French name, I don’t know how to pronounce it, but he says, “Trust in the slow work of God.” And I love that. It’s slow. I’m still healing from stuff, and yet realizing that God is in charge of that. And I think anything that happens overnight and instantly isn’t worth happening. It’s really … God works degree by degree. And I think the real lasting change in my life has taken time. It’s taken me a thousand nights of crying to really understand that God is there. And I don’t think I would understand that with one time. I have that one moment in the car that was this unbelievable moment, but my days are not spent like that. But that moment isn’t what has defined my faith as much as walking through when it feels dark and bleak and awful. Because I have a lot of people say to me, “I have never had that experience of God. I’ve never felt this incredible sense of God’s presence,” but that’s not what my faith is based on. If I never had that, that would be fine, because it really is the slow every day wondering, but still trusting. And even though we don’t trust, God is holding onto us. That’s what’s amazing is Psalm 57 talks about, “I cry out to God who fulfills his purpose for me.” And it’s really trusting that God has a purpose and God will fulfill it. And we don’t need to tie ourselves in a knot thinking that it’s all up to us. He knows that we’re dust and we’re frail and we’re going to mess up and we’re going to not trust. And I so often say, “I believe, help my unbelief.” My faith is not this rock solid thing. It’s just to keep going back. If I’ve learned anything, it’s just keep talking to God. In all of those times, I’m just willing to say, “God, I don’t even know where you are. Talk to me, be with me.” But I think the biggest thing is as believers, sometimes we feel like we need to come to God having it all together. And that’s not true. We can say, “God, I don’t even think you’re here. Help me.” And that’s what’s modeled through the Psalms.

Joshua Scott:

So at the end of the book of Job … I think you actually might’ve commented on this in your conversation with Isaac. But at the end of book of Job, Job’s gone through all this incredible suffering, losing his family and every material possession that was worth something and so much so, his wife tells him, “Just curse God and die. Why are you still worshiping him?” And at the end, he wants this stand before God, he wants to have an audience, and he wants to talk to him. And God says, “Well, who are you? Where were you?” And then Job responds, “Well, I’ve spoken of things too wonderful for me.” And in the end, God, doesn’t really give an answer to why it happened to Job. Job’s kind of left not knowing why, and yet you could see on the other end of his response to God at the end of Job, that God has shaped in him this sense of God’s sovereignty, this sturdiness throughout whatever else is going to come in his life. And we don’t know what carries on afterwards. And so I wonder if you could share a little bit from what you see as you look back at all that has happened in your life and now to where God has brought you in his purposes, He’s brought you now, what have you seen Him shaping you, that in the moments of those sufferings, you thought nothing good would come of it, or wondered if any good would come of it? And now here you think, “Wow. God has shaped in me wonderful things.”

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

Yeah. In the moment I would say for all of those things, I just wondered like, “Why are you doing this?” And I remember after my ex husband left, I screamed out, in front of other people, “Why does God hate me?” That was really my narrative for a few times, was like, “God, why do you hate me so much that all of these things keep happening?” And yet what I would say is God has shown me that he is the greatest treasure. Whereas I think to lose a son, to lose use of your body, to lose a marriage, those are in some ways the precious things of our life. And yet to lose them was a gift because I see that Jesus really is better. And I think if you don’t get a chance to lose them, you don’t get a chance to actually understand that, that Jesus can fill you that way. And in the midst of it, it doesn’t feel like that. Like for anybody here who’s been through any of those things, I get it. It doesn’t feel like that. But after walking with God and walking through those things, kind of looking in the rear view mirror, I can say, “Wow … “just if I had to go through that again, I would to know Jesus the way I do. Joni Eareckson Tada says, “There are more important things in life than walking.” And she says, “I wouldn’t trade places with anyone to be this close to Jesus.” And I would say the same thing. I would not trade places with anybody on this planet to be this close to Jesus.

Joshua Scott:

That’s great. So I mean, I just hear in your voice, and in your whole stories you shared, there’s just this … as much as you say that from that moment in the car, the joy isn’t quite the same, there still is a very real sense of joy in your voice as you share the story. How does that happen? How does God use these sufferings, and then so much so that James would tell us to count it all joy when we experience sufferings? Well, how do we actually feel the joy that holds us fast that’s different than happiness when we’re struggling after all of these events happen in our lives?

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

Yeah, I would say that joy just comes from just walking with God. I mean, just realizing that we can talk to Him. And I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of hard things and a lot of hard things I’ve said to God and a lot of hard things … if you look for hard things, you can just open the Psalms, pick a lot of them, and there’s a lot of good stuff you can say. But I feel like the joy has come from me and being honest with God and being real so that my relationship is not this plastic, “This is what I need to say,” which I would say it was that way for a long time. Even after I definitely knew Jesus after I came to Christ at 16, I feel like I was a little bit removed from actually giving … I mean, finding joy in God, I would say. I felt like I had to defend God in some way. And so the joy wasn’t as genuine. But when I feel like it’s not my job to defend God, it’s not my job to look like a good Christian, whatever that is supposed to look like, I just need to love God and keep talking to him. And it’s really in that process that we really find joy, whereas I’ve never found a lot of joy out of obligation and feeling like I’m having to say the right thing.

Joshua Scott:

So you keep talking about this understanding the relationship you have with God and how the joy you have is drawn from that, enjoying that relationship. How do you do that on a day to day basis? I think you’re right when you mentioned earlier that a lot of people don’t think of that relationship. Often it’s, it’s a check of the box when I’m reading my Bible rather than being with him. And my prayers are simply … they’re tokens that I know I need to offer, but it’s not actually a conversation. If I’m here and I’m, maybe I’m a young Christian I’m listening and I’m thinking, “Well, I want that. I want to think of Jesus has as somebody I’m in a relationship with, and the Father is actually my father. How do I get there?”

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

I would say open the Bible and start with asking God … and there’s a couple of prayers I use. One is, “Open my eyes that I would see wonderful things in your law.” That’s from Psalm 119. Sometimes I say, “Speak Lord, for your servant is listening.” And sometimes I just say, “God, I want to love you and know you more. Help me do that. Show me yourself in these words.” And God does. I mean, this is a spiritual book and it’s a spiritual life that we can’t do on our own. When I try to open the Bible and just figure it out, I can’t do that. I mean, I can understand things. But to really find joy in the Bible and in Jesus, he’s got to give it to us. And I think sometimes we think we’ve got to come up with it. I can’t come up with anything, but I can say, “God gives me joy. Give me a depth, give me a passion for you,” and just pray it every day. Pray it when you pick up the Bible. Because God is the one that does all the work. We just need to ask.

Joshua Scott:

That’s great. So maybe you’ve already hit on this note, but I wonder if you could share a little bit of encouragement for those of our listeners who maybe have gone through suffering or are in the suffering right now, what encouragement would you offer to them to hold fast to this relationship with Christ and to fix their eyes on Him so that when they do pass through that fire, it’s to the end of becoming more like him?

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

I would say there’s … for me to hold fast, there’s three prepositions that have kind of guided me. And one is God with me, which is like Isaiah 43, that God will never leave you. Don’t ever think that he’s not there. The other one is God for me, that Romans eight, “If God is for us, who can be against us? He did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all. How will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?” So God wants to give us everything. I mean, He’s already given us His son. There’s nothing he wants to keep from us that’s good. And then the last one is God in us. We have the Holy Spirit in us so we don’t have to do this ourselves. It’s not up to us to muster this up. It’s up to us to realize that God is in us to do this. And I think those three things when you’re walking through a trial, remembering those, can change everything.

Joshua Scott:

It’s a long game.

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

Yeah. It’s a long game. Trust in the slow work of God in it.

Joshua Scott:

So as a final note, I wonder if you maybe … could you share just a little bit of what you have seen in the fruit of God, God’s story expressed in your life of how you sharing this with other people? Have you seen fruit of God working in others through this story that he’s given to you?

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

I have gotten to some. I mean, I write a blog and people write to me on the blog and I’ve written a book and I’m writing another one. And I feel like, God has been so gracious to just … sometimes I’ll get an email or something and somebody will say, “This has really helped me.” And that’s really why I do it. It’s just feeling like, “Wow, I don’t have all the answers, but Jesus has met me. And I would love to be able to help you see that he will meet you too.” And so that’s been the greatest blessing for me, is hearing the stories of how God is using what I’ve been through for other people. And I think that’s … as all believers, that’s … I feel like suffering, crazily enough, is a gift as well as other gifts. And it’s given for the church, and all the gifts for the church are there to build up the body. And I feel like the gift God has given me is suffering. And it’s not a gift I asked for, but it’s still a gift. I know. There’s a lot of other things I might’ve put on my list before that one, but it’s a gift and I think God really does use it, like all the other gifts, to build up the body.

Joshua Scott:

Well Vaneetha, thank you so much for sharing that gift with us. I really appreciate you coming on and talking with us today.

Vaneetha Rendall Risner:

Yeah, well, it was my pleasure. Thank you so much, Joshua.

Joshua Scott:

Yeah. I just wanted to say another thank you to Vaneetha for joining us for this conversation today. And I just wanted to add a bit of a personal update. God has been graciously and sovereignly leading my life, and I’m so thankful for it and I’m sure you experienced that in many ways. And so he’s actually opened up a new opportunity for me to serve as a campus pastor at Northview Community Church in Abbotsford.And so because of that and because of everything that comes with that, I’ve had to make the tough decision of away from my role here at indoubt. And so I just wanted to say a big thank you to everybody who’s been listening. Some of you maybe will miss my voice, but I doubt it. And, and others view are probably super excited. You think, “Well, that’s more Daniel and more Isaac. That’s great.” Well, I just want to say, it’s been awesome working with those two guys, and you’re very blessed to have them. I’ve been very blessed working with this whole team. And so I’m praying for you all, I’m praying for this ministry and, and it’s certainly my hope that God would bless you and he would continue to shape you through the truth of the conversations that continue to be had on this podcast. So thanks again, and God bless you all.

Erika:

Thanks Joshua. It’s been such a blessing to have him join the indoubt team as a host. And while we’re sad to see him leave, we are so excited for all that God is going to do through him in his new role as a pastor. And thanks to Vaneetha Rendall Risner for sharing her story with us. If you liked what you heard and would like to learn more about Vaneetha, you can check out vaneetha.com, or follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. We’ll have all of Vaneetha’s social accounts linked on the episode page on our website. And while you’re listening, I wanted to let you know about something that’s going on at indoubt. We’re a nonprofit, and the only way we can continue on producing weekly episodes, articles, and blogs, is through the generosity of you, our listeners. Indoubt is all about answering the tough questions of faith in God and the Bible. If this is something you’d like to be a part of, would you consider participating in our fiscal year end this month? The goal for indoubt is to reach $75,000 by June 30th. Your gift would mean so much as we continue answering the tough questions of life and faith that young adults are asking. Check out indoubt.ca in Canada, or indoubt.com in the US to give today. Don’t forget to join us next week as we continue with the second part of our conversation with last week’s guest, Scott Sauls, as he and Isaac talk about irresistible faith, what it looks like, and how to share it. We promise you won’t want to miss it.

Thanks so much for listening. If you want to hear more, subscribe on iTunes and Spotify, or visit us online at indoubt.ca or in doubt.com. We’re also on social media, so make sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.